Spyders dont block LOS to a 'lith - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    Member dirksj's Avatar
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    Spyders dont block LOS to a 'lith

    Yesterday I was reading vast quantities of threads and came across someone making Sypder walls in front of their 'lith to save it from fire. They even railed on someone that claimed that was silly and a rules abuse. I can't seem to find the post anylonger and I figure a more prominent post might find more readers anyhow. Hopefully this will help prevent some of this sort of abuse. We're already considered a cheesy army, we don't need to give folks more ammo .

    It didn't sit right with me, so I dug. I ended up finding the same thing that the below link found. The 4th Ed. page 20 rules are quite clear that you cannot block LOS simply by model size catagory. Model's eye view is used to see if you can shoot "over or past" one size 3 into another. Only area terrain has a global effect based on size.

    Linky (shooting @ skimmers, LoS?)


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  3. #2
    LO Zealot Gojiratoho's Avatar
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    Very impressive first post Linky. Most users wait a while before they bring up rules debates.

    I'm inclined to agree with you, that Spyders can't block LoS to a Monolith, especially with the wording on Page 20. However, in that thread, I'd found another entry earlier in the BGB that states that model size does not matter, only it's size classification. It seems that, on par with GW rules writing, there are two ways to interperet the size/LoS blocking rule. I can't remember the page #, and don't have my BGB handy to reference.

    By the way, welcome to the L-O boards.
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    Senior Member dymew's Avatar
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    I believe that refers to customized models. ie: I've seen converted nightbringers used as chapter masters for SM's. The master is usually a size 2 model and should have LOS blocked by a size 3 model. However, since the NightBringer is so Tall, You can easilly see it over almost any size 3 model. But since it's size 2, you can't draw LOS to it, even though you can see the model.

    I aggree that a spyder cannot block LOS to a hulking monolith

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  5. #4
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    I thought that a spyder was a monstrous creature so he could only block LOS to infantry. A monlith is size three so there's not much bigger than that. You just need to use the model's LOS and common sense. Some people try to just bend the rules. A monlith can't have LOS blocked unless there's something bigger than it like a giant building, or I fear the Forgeworld's giant titan models. Welcome to LO.
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    heretical thoughts? ShadowZora13's Avatar
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    I have spread that ttactic to a thread or two from the original one. As far as I have seen in the rules, a size 3 model blocks los to all size 1-3 models behind it. But the point you bring up makes me want to go recheck that part of the rules. Good find there, and welcome to LO.


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    Thanks for the welcome . And the handle is dirksj, Linky was just a link to the thread LOL.

    Debating is my favorite passtime, thus the initial post ringing true with who I am.

    Anyhow a few clarifications of my points for above posters:

    The only other LOS rule I can find is page 7 and it just says: if you're taller you can see over. It doesn't go into detail about what happens if you are the same size class but different models, etc, like page 20. It's a "you can if" rule rather than a "you can't if" in the very general intro basic guidelines section of the book...not in the rules proper for LOS. Page 20 goes into far more detail on the can and can'ts and are the actual specific LOS rules including exceptions.

    Monsterous creatures are size 3, the same as the 'lith, which is why the question comes into play. This is a little odd considering not all monsterous creatures are amazingly large and neither are many vehicles. OTOH there are some really huge ones. Should a squad of small vehicles, cleaverly arranged, really block out a land raider? Or a towering Wraithlord? It seems quite silly.

    OTOOH (other-other, sorry) this encourages/discourages modding up your pieces as making them extra tall or short makes a huge difference in models eye view checks.

    Is there any official statement in the book on modded models? I'm betting that it says substantial mods (like fielding a lictor and claiming it's a carnifex with bulimia) need to be approved by your opponent. This would solve the problem. When someone fields a 30 foot tall space marine commander you just tell them no.

    One thing I do remember reading is that model base size is not allowed to be any smaller, just larger. But that doesn't help us in this instance.

  8. #7
    LO Zealot Gojiratoho's Avatar
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    My apologies for the mistake. I thought Linky was a signature or something.

    Anywho, page 20 does say to use models eye view, but page 7 contradicts this and says that model height class (Size 1,2,or 3) is what matters and not actual model size.

    Personally, I'd fully allow someone to shoot over a line of TS to hit a monolith, simply due to the immense size difference between the two models. Things that are close in size, say a Tyrant and a Carnifex, I'd totally allow LoS to be blocked, even though the Tyrant is taller and the Fex is wider, so Models Eye View would dictate that you couldn't block LoS.
    Gyauayuayuayua! Ja! Ve vill crush da little girly men in deir little girl men awrmor! Ve vill see owur enemies driven befowur us, und hear da lahmentaytions of deir wemen. Und from owur home planet, de stayte uf Califowurnia, ve vill lawunch owur mighty offensive. Even if you kill us, ve'll be bach!! Gyauayauyauyauyau!

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    Member dirksj's Avatar
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    Eh...Page 7 is rules about models and bases you can put them on and stuff.

    LOS rules are in the LOS section. IMHO that trumps anything not in the LOS section of the rules. When someone goes to look up a rule about LOS they find LOS in the index and go to page 20 heh.

    I see page 7 as just a taste to give you an idea of what kinda of things to pay attention to. The rules tend to do that a lot. They give you a general overview and then a few dozen pages later give you the detail.

    A lictor standing in front of a carnie falls into the "bits of antenna and feet sticking out" rule, I would say...thus blocked. Someone with a sniper weapon that argued well maybe I'd slide.
    DirkSJ
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  10. #9
    LO Zealot Gojiratoho's Avatar
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    Page 7 specifically states Model Height which was why I mentioned it. Page 6 deals with bases. Like I said, I pretty much agree with you that two units with vastly different sizes (Lith-Spyders) would follow model LoS from page 20.

    Actually, reading page 20 fully, it does say that you can see over MC and Vehicles, but not through them. That clears it up for me at least.
    Gyauayuayuayua! Ja! Ve vill crush da little girly men in deir little girl men awrmor! Ve vill see owur enemies driven befowur us, und hear da lahmentaytions of deir wemen. Und from owur home planet, de stayte uf Califowurnia, ve vill lawunch owur mighty offensive. Even if you kill us, ve'll be bach!! Gyauayauyauyauyau!

    -Arnoldunit Schwarzenecronegger; when questioned about the impending doom he would rain down upon the heads of his doomed enemies.

  11. #10
    Member dirksj's Avatar
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    I think we're agreeing and rambling. Heh.
    DirkSJ
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