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Hail fellow Tau commanders! This is Shas'o Tau Dev'n Kauyon reporting once again.
My stealth teams have returned from a very important mission! I sent them scouring the nearby space of my outpost and they have returned with many a report on the enemy armies...I would like your opinion on the best way to deal with these curs...
So I went around a few other 40K sites trying to find army lists of the same pt size that my army lists are.
Now, I know my lists (500-1000, can be found in the Tau Army List subforum) aren't exactly powergamer material, but I think they are pretty well balanced. Still, looking through a few other peoples lists' within the same point ranges and I got kinda worried.
Most lists I found tend to have either many more troops than I, or many more vehicles. In the case of SM's, this can be two fold as they have several vehicles and every squad has some sort of heavy weapon.
Don't get me wrong, I am once again, not a uber-power gamer, but I like to know the field is at least level.
To this end, I would like to know the actual effectiveness of the "Fire Knife." If you take a look at my 1000 PT army list, "Fire Storm", you'll notice that I have 4 of these suits. Two are HQ's with a PR, MP and MT, while the two elites are PR, MP, SG and HW MT. These are meant to reinforce/troubleshoot for my 2 FW squads, my Stealth Team, and my Railhead.
I see the Fire Knife as a general suit, as it is often described. It is also commonly described as being inefficient, with many other configurations, usually more specialized, being "better."
I, however, prefer the point spread of the Fire Knife, and hope it will do it's job of taking out light vehicles, heavy troops, and assisting my FW/Stealths with their more annoying targets as well as possibly protecting my Railhead in case of dire situations.
I guess what I'm saying is this: Can a Fire Knife reliably make up it's point cost? Can it take on say a SM Bike or two, perhaps a Whirlwind or Tornado? How many would I have to focus on a single Predator?
My army is a "Take on all comers" in my mind. At least, that is what I want it to be. Doesn't have to obliterate, otherwise I'd have more Hammerheads, obviously. I just want to know if it's as flexible as I think it should be.
I await your reports,
Shas'o Tau Dev' Kauyon
All my Crisis suits were Fire Knife save for one TLBurst cannon/flamer.
In hindsight I regret this, I should have taken more Sun Forges as I played Marines alot and that type would have worked better, anything not a Marine Fire Warriors can obliterate.
TL missile pod crisis are better light vehicle poppers, its just getting the elite slots to field them, especialy with the lovely stealth suits on offer.
Dont be disheartened, people may have more vehicles or men than you, I doubt they will have more of both.
Every time you read this sig: a fairie dies!
Magnets magnets magnets. 'nuff said.
Fire Knife is a great set-up for any form of powered armor armies(SoB, SM, CSM) but of late I've been doing alot of infanty "shock suits", deep-striking 'ui's with a flamer, burst cannon, and multi-tracker. Of couse my last few games were Orks, IG, and Tau.
As for the vehicle:troops ratio...well, I tend to be troop heavy. In my games against the "horde" armies of IG and Orks, they've outnumbered me, but not by much. It's really hard to have more vehicles then other armies since we only have two vehicles to speak of, and they're the same chassis. I play static too, so I don't even own a Devilfish. If you're worried about taking out vehicles, stick with 2 Railheads, a team of three Broadsides, and some sunforge suits.
Record as of 26 December for my Static Tau Cadre.
10 wins, 0 losses, and 1 draw.
Last game: Victory over Necron in a 600 point "kill em all" that lasted til turn 10 ending with a phase out.
I'm not "worried" about vehicles, I'm just wondering how effective my 4 Fire Knives will be in filling the gap between my two FW troops, my 6 tau stealth squad and my 1 Railhead. In making a supposedly balanced list, and reveiwing other armies lists within the same category, I can see their escalation. For a few lists, I am fine, I can match their troops choices with my own, assing two fire knives to their fast attack squad, another two to their transport, and then my railhead to take out their big gun. Others...I'm a bit worried. I don't have the other army coedexes, I don't know how tough a SM Land Speeder is, but if a Fire Knife can go toe-to-toe with them, then I'm happy, I just don't know if they can...
What do you rely on your Fire Knife for?
I always take 2 HH (railgun) in 1000pts the subs are only 1 pt of strength less than a missile pod but have the same AP and have a nice big ordnance template at BS4. So your doing everything better than a Missile pod, they take out infantry buautifully and will take out most light armour if pushed(but you have solid shot option which does it better).Originally Posted by Shas'o Tau Dev'n Kauyon
My XV8's always take plasma / fusion / multi and SG, they kill just about everything they hit because of high strength low AP something Misslie Pods just dont do, that AP4 with the BS3 of a standard suit and small number of shots just are not value for the points.
Everything a MP is supposed to be good at can be done better by other more usefull things in the TAU list.
In my opinion Fireknife is the most overated suit config going, it appeals because it seems to offer a lot of variation for the points but in reality all it does is offer a couple of str7 shots(if you hit with both) that most things get a save against. That 1 pt of strength over a plasma means nothing when you hit a termie for instance its the AP thats important. The Submunission round has the benefit of a large kill area coupled to the good BS of the HH plus a nice str10 AP1 solid shot.
At the end of the day with a MP you can kill 2 troops(if they have a 4+ and you hit) or take a wound of a tough creature or if your really lucky glance a lightly armoured vehicle, nothing there other units cant do better.
If you want a balanced list get a couple of HH, 2 or 3 helios XV8's(one SHAS-EL), FW, Stealths if you like em and if you can fit em in some Kroot, You will have a 1000pt list that can deal with most things easily.
Fireknives are like space marines with a bolter. I mean, what can't they deal with? I suppose land raiders come to mind. Meh. If you have too many, you'll notice it when you are having trouble taking down everything. Crisis cost a fair amount of points, they can't shoot at anything efficiently, with the exception of light vehicles.
So I like to specialise my crisis, and only take a few. While the fireknife can deal with anything, I instead use battlefield tactics to make sure I'm only shooting at what I'm good at shooting at. As opposed to shooting whatever comes my way.
Riki, do you really need to post about how amazing your army design is in nearly every thread even remotely related?Shas'ui with missile pod, plasma rifle and multi-tracker: 65 points. Hammerhead with railgun: 150 points minimum. Notice the difference?Originally Posted by rikimaruThree times the range? How is that so easy to forget?My XV8's always take plasma / fusion / multi and SG, they kill just about everything they hit because of high strength low AP something Misslie Pods just dont do, that AP4 with the BS3 of a standard suit and small number of shots just are not value for the points.This can be said of any crisis-suit configuration. In fact, since you love to point out how great your suits are at killing terminators, let's do that comparison.Everything a MP is supposed to be good at can be done better by other more usefull things in the TAU list.
Shas'ui with plasma, fusion, multi-tracker and shield generator: 78 points
Within twelve inches: (2 plasma shots, 1 hit, .833 wounds, .556 unsaved) + (1 fusion shot, .5 hits .333 unsaved) = .889 wounds
Broadside with twin-linked plasma and multi-tracker: 85 points
Within twelve inches: (1 railgun shot, .75 hits, .625 wounds, .417 unsaved) + (2 plasma shots, 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds, .833 unsaved) = 1.25 wounds
The broadside will, of course, inflict more wounds at any other range, but I figured I'd give your suits the best-case scenario (since you love to).This is just silly. Models with 4+ and worse saves are much more common than the terminators you build your suits to fight.In my opinion Fireknife is the most overated suit config going, it appeals because it seems to offer a lot of variation for the points but in reality all it does is offer a couple of str7 shots(if you hit with both) that most things get a save against.Yes, we know that fireknives aren't good against terminators. They're much better than helioses against fire warriors or genestealers; why don't you mention that?That 1 pt of strength over a plasma means nothing when you hit a termie for instance its the AP thats important. The Submunission round has the benefit of a large kill area coupled to the good BS of the HH plus a nice str10 AP1 solid shot.
Now, to get down to business. . . . O'Kauyon, here's my take on fireknives:
+ Can fire the most strength-six or better shots of any crisis-suit configuration, making it . . .
+ good against light infantry.
+ decent against medium and heavy infantry.
+ good against light vehicles.
+ good against models with invulnerable saves.
+ good for firing into cover.
+ good against models that rely on toughness more than armor for defense.
- Weapons are incongruous, in that . . .
- one of the missile pod's strengths is its range, whereas the plasma rifle isn't worth the points unless you're going to get into rapid-fire range.
- one of the plasma rifle's strengths is its good armor piercing, whereas the missile pod has lackluster armor piercing.
Therefore, the fireknife is one of the most versatile suits out there and can kill swathes of lightly armored opponents, but it will struggle to find a steady gig against a marine-type army. In any situation, it takes careful consideration of opportunity costs, because positioning the suit to take full advantage of either of its weapons will mean limiting the effectiveness of its other weapon. As a general-use suit, it can certainly get the job done, so long as you determine its role against each army you face.
thank you and good night
Huh what are you talking about how does refering to having 3HH in my list equate to boasting about my list. I was making the point about the sub round and how usefull it is against the same targets that MP tend to be used against.Originally Posted by Holothuria
I never boast about my list I state its strengths (IMO) and why I use the list, I do this so I can get other peoples opinions and points and if they are valid I will change my opinion(I used attached drone sq with my Shas-O until it was pointed out by Onlainaru that it was inefficeint now I dont attach, thats just one example) I state facts if that is boasting to you well I am sorry you see it that way.
Be careful everybody do not make any references to your list, its wrong apparantly.
When discussing the role of a component of a list and how it fits into the list its a bit hard not to refer to the army list is it not.
Shas-Ui with MP 65pts, HH with Railgun 150pts yes, but I have the HH in my list anyway(damn refered to my list again) and the Helios XV8's. So my point is why take the Fireknife because the HH can do anything the FK can do and the Helios does the rest.
Also the Helios will kill 4+ models just as effectively as the FK but will also kill the 2+ termies etc (the termies are only an example) so why is that silly??
Also your comparison with Broadsides was just silly.
How many times do you see a Broadside within 12" of the enemy, it has no mobility it cant move and shoot the railgun, the helios can always shoot its weapons etc etc.
I do not use the best case scenario, I use the most often encountered scenario for my XV8's, seeing as I use em for close range hunter killers it seems common sense to use their performance in that role as examples.
The 36" range of MP is ok if you can target what you want to hit, remember you have to test for units that are not closest targets and 2 shots with a 50% chance of failing to hit coupled with a lot of units getting a save against them really reduces their effectiveness. So lets just have a look at the swathes of infantry one FK can kill compared to a Helios.
6 turns average per game, best scenario,2 shots per turn in range,best result 12 infantry models killed, wow thats a swathe.
Helios when in range 18 shots 18 models killed (think thats 50% gain).
FK with MP, a high proportion of models will get saves so kill rate reduced.
Helios with PL & Fus most models have no save due to AP so kill rate stays high.
The AP is all important here.
Also the Helios can kill just about any vehicle with the Fusion and the plasma can kill as well if the right armour is hit (I,E rear armour or Landspeeder armour).
The range of a Plasma is 24" when not rapid firing.
I use the Helios where it should be used so I am obviously going to get the results, if I left it 36" away from the enemy then obviously its useless, but I dont, I get it in where all its firepower can be used, the FK if left at 36" can only use one weapon its MP so all the other weapons are redundant thus reducing its kill rate and efficiency.
Also why are FK better at killing Stealers etc if I shoot a Stealer with a Plasma its dead, but I suppose your ref to the range. Well for one I dont use XV8's as infantry killers I use HH and FW to do that (both have a nice range)and the FK will only kill 2 infantry models max a turn, hardly an effective use for an expensive XV8.
Using XV8 variants is all about how you use them, My play style fits the Helios and I get more value out of its fit then I would ever get from a FK.
Also the list of benefits for FK you listed, well Helios can do all that as well.
I think the point is, a fireknife is a very cheap scoring unit.
A hammerhead is not.
The fact they take up different slots on the FOC, doesn't even need to be considered.
If you are taking a crisis because it is a cheap scoring unit that can jump shoot jump, then some people like giving it the missile pod so they don't have to get close to do damage with it. Others rather give it a fusion blaster for armour piercing. I have one of each.
Suppose it depends on your definition of cheap. I think the HH is incredibly cheap given all its benefits, and it is so so versatile. I can sort of see your point about the cheap scoring unit but I still think the Helios is much more capable of making its points cost back than the FK.Originally Posted by onlainari
I think you use a non Shield Gen Helios and a FK, which do you find is most valuable game on game, I bet its the Helios ask yourself another question if you had to lose one XV8 which would you drop.
I just do not understand why the FK is so popular (or maybe I should just say MP) it just seems so middle of the road to me, it does not perform strongly enough in any role to justify its choice over other more usefull weapons fits.
Also a basic Helios with MT is only approx 73pts(thats an estimate I am at work so dont have codex to hand), and the FK is 65pts average so the cheap argument sort of loses a bit of its gloss when your talking about 8pts.
Also like I said before one FK at range is not going to accomplish much if its behind FW at the back of the field etc most vehicles are going to be facing with either front or side armour which str7 struggles against (majority glancing ), if it hits troops its killing 2 max and tough units usually get saves against it, it just does not seem an efficient use of an expensive(relatively) elites choice.