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Thread: Tau Anti-Tank

  1. #1
    Mr. Tau onlainari's Avatar
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    299 (x7)

    Tau Anti-Tank

    Here are some popular vehicles, assume that all skimmers have moved fast. Please tell me if I've missed any popular tank.

    75pt broadside vs 56pt deathrain. Deathrain = Crisis suit with twinlinked missile pods, target lock. The lower the number, the better, as it means more chance of killing the unit taking into account how much the unit firing costs.

    AV12 venerable dreadnought (assuming rerolls of all destroyed results only):
    Broadside = 480pts per kill
    Deathrain = 820.6pts per kill

    AV 12 chimera:
    Broadside = 240pts per kill
    Deathrain = 350.6pts per kill

    AV12 devilfish with decoys:
    Broadside = 540pts per kill
    Deathrain = 518.4pts per kill

    AV12 wave serpent:
    Broadside = 600pts per kill
    Deathrain = 350.6pts per kill

    AV12 falcon with holofield:
    Broadside = 1080pts per kill
    Deathrain = 1022.2pts per kill

    AV11 rhino:
    Broadside = 200pts per kill
    Deathrain = 207.1pts per kill

    AV11 smoked rhino
    Broadside = 600pts per kill
    Deathrain = 462.5pts per kill

    If you wanted to, you could also work out the pts per kill for hammerheads. As an example, against an AV12 chimera, it takes 594pts per kill for the 165pt railhead, and 703.3pts per kill for the 145pt ionhead.

    The broadside appears more efficient against non-skimmers, however it is unable to move and likely to die by the end of the game. I stick by that the deathrain is our best anti-tank in the Tau army.

    Now jumping back to the railhead, it is better than the broadside because of those reasons. It is a lot harder to kill, more versatile with its submunitions rounds, and very manouverable. And the deathrain is still better than the railhead against every single one of those vehicle mentioned above, by a long way. So, lets compare them where the railhead should make up some ground.

    AV13 hammerhead with decoys:
    Railhead: 1670.6pts per kill
    Deathrain: 1022.2pts per kill

    AV13 predator
    Railhead: 742.5pts per kill
    Deathrain: 1358.1pts per kill

    Finally, we are seeing where the railhead becomes useful. In a small proportion of the vehicles taken, however a significant portion none the less. The idea is though, you target the side armour.

    That's why people take railheads. They're so easy to use. Point and shoot. It's extremely resilient, mobile, and an excellent tank against light and medium infantry (which I will always give it full credit for). It however is not made for anti-tank.

    Deathrains are. All you need to do is learn how to get them to target side and rear armour, and you'll be very tough to beat.

    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru View Post
    You have the option for instance of infiltrating, outflanking, pillboxing, or anti assault.


    And that's just with the Kroot.

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  3. #2
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    Although if youre ever playing on a large board the massive range advantage of the broadside is always nice.

  4. #3
    With Oden On Our Side... The Doctor's Avatar
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    Or, take all three. Then you can kill everything.
    Half Gods are worshiped with Wine and Flowers. Real Gods are worshiped in Blood.

    Blood for the Blood God! Beer for the Bronze Keg!

  5. #4
    Mr. Tau onlainari's Avatar
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    299 (x7)

    You're allowed to deploy within 24" of your opponent, I don't think a large board harms a unit that moves 12" a turn, as it is still decent range.

    The point is to show you don't have to take railguns to win. You can win with railguns, in fact 30 something of my wins have been with railguns. I've also won 5 times without railguns, 4 times at a points limit as large as 1750pts.

    Of course, the point is moot when dealing with beginners, the tactics involving hitting side armour may be too much. They should take railheads because they're so easy. Veterans should take railheads because they're so easy. But you don't *have* to, see what I'm saying?
    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru View Post
    You have the option for instance of infiltrating, outflanking, pillboxing, or anti assault.


    And that's just with the Kroot.

  6. #5
    The deep down truth Rikimaru's Avatar
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    724 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by onlainari
    You're allowed to deploy within 24" of your opponent, I don't think a large board harms a unit that moves 12" a turn, as it is still decent range.

    The point is to show you don't have to take railguns to win. You can win with railguns, in fact 30 something of my wins have been with railguns. I've also won 5 times without railguns, 4 times at a points limit as large as 1750pts.

    Of course, the point is moot when dealing with beginners, the tactics involving hitting side armour may be too much. They should take railheads because they're so easy. Veterans should take railheads because they're so easy. But you don't *have* to, see what I'm saying?
    Please enlighten us all as to exactly you came to these figures, Deathrain yeah whatever if you wanna believe that a TGH 4 crisis suit is more efficient than a HH then you carry on deluding yourself.
    The Deathrain is not by any means the most efficient tank killer av14 springs to mind which you just happened to neglect mentioning, and the fact that your having to rely on getting to a vehicles side armour to get a decent chance of destroying it. 56pts is great if it actually does the job twin linking 4+ shots still leaves you with 3 max shots(if your very lucky) at STR7 AP4 and its only 36" range which on bigger fields is a disadvantage.
    Anyway give us the formula you used to work out your points and all the variables used, I for one am very interested, its oh so easy to just post statistics tell us how you came about your statistics, I guarantee you that your theory and statistics will be shot down in flames, if Deathrains (or similar xv8's) where so far ahead statistically and are so much more efficient why is everyone not using them and why bother having railguns or Ions at all, why not just field 9 XVdeathrains 2 Shas deathrains and some troops in devilfish to run away, cos according to you nothing else is as efficient at killing anything with armour and units to boot than the DR XV8..
    Also your actually trying to say 4 games without a railhead is a valid argument for not taking them, 4 games come on get real come back to us on that ane after 20 games and lets see how well you have done, then take the railhead for 20 and then you can state a comparison, but not with 4 games.
    No you dont HAVE to take railguns to win, but it helps if you do.

  7. #6
    Mr. Tau onlainari's Avatar
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    299 (x7)

    Mr. rikimaru. Maths. I grabbed a calculator and worked them all out myself.

    +rep to anyone that can grab a calculator and clarify I have the right figures, you will however have to show what numbers you pressed for at least one popular tank to prove you know how to use maths, and are not just rep grabbing.

    I will give out multiple +reps if more than 1 person confirms.

    Bonus points for anyone who works out how many storm troopers need to be under a submunition template before the hammerhead is more efficient than a deathrain, assuming they're out of smart missile range.
    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru View Post
    You have the option for instance of infiltrating, outflanking, pillboxing, or anti assault.


    And that's just with the Kroot.

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru
    Pl
    No you dont HAVE to take railguns to win, but it helps if you do.
    esapecially vs av 14 as previously stated
    s 7 will do nothing to my av 14 front armor on my russes(unless its a gauss weapon or the uint has tankhunters but theses are all technicallities)
    i can arrange for you never to hit the side armor of my russ
    it involves having 2 chimeras presstheir sides on the left and right side of the russ
    the whole formation will be placed against the back table edge(cause ive had a bad experience with stealth suits)
    therre fore you will ony be able to destroy my chimeras which cost around 160 and they would die anyway. thought trust me s 10 has a tendancy NOT to hurt my armor(mainly nids with warp blast
    "My troops can eat their belts. But my tanks gotta have gas."
    General George S. Patton
    my armies
    "They have a gun called the death arc!They are now my favorite 40k race!"me quoting about the xenarch
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    Mr. Tau onlainari's Avatar
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    299 (x7)

    Yes, but then I just don't kill your russ, and win anyway, because I've done more damage, and more importantly, recieved more objective victory points.

    Your russ can't hit anything it can't see. With 2 chimera's next to it, you're blocking a lot of LOS :tongue:.
    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru View Post
    You have the option for instance of infiltrating, outflanking, pillboxing, or anti assault.


    And that's just with the Kroot.

  10. #9
    The deep down truth Rikimaru's Avatar
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    724 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by onlainari
    Mr. rikimaru. Maths. I grabbed a calculator and worked them all out myself.

    +rep to anyone that can grab a calculator and clarify I have the right figures, you will however have to show what numbers you pressed for at least one popular tank to prove you know how to use maths, and are not just rep grabbing.

    I will give out multiple +reps if more than 1 person confirms.

    Bonus points for anyone who works out how many storm troopers need to be under a submunition template before the hammerhead is more efficient than a deathrain, assuming they're out of smart missile range.
    Yet again an avoidence jiust let us know how you worked this out and what variables you used.
    I will rep you if you show us your math skill, instead of just avoiding the question.

  11. #10
    Mr. Tau onlainari's Avatar
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    299 (x7)

    Lets work against the AV12 chimera, a very common tank.

    The broadside has a 0.75 chance to hit, a 0.8333 chance to penetrate, and a 0.5 chance to destroy after penetrating. Multiplied, that gives a 0.3125 chance of destroying.

    A broadside costs 75pts, that means broadsides cost 240pts per kill (0.3125 divided by the cost to find kills per point, inverted to find points per kill).



    The deathrain has a 0.75 chance to hit one shot, a 0.1667 chance to penetrate and 0.1667 chance to glance, and 0.5 chance to destroy after penetrating, 0.1667 chance to destroy after glancing. Multiplied, that gives a 0.0833 chance of destroying.

    To factor in the other shot, you get the chance of not destroying with the first shot, 0.9167, multiply by the chance of not destroying with the second shot, 0.9167, and then work out the chance of destroying from the calculated chance of not destroying. That is 0.9167 x 0.9167 = 0.8423, 1 - 0.8403 = 0.1597.

    A deathrain costs 56pts, that means a deathrains cost 360.6pts per kill (0.1597 divided by the cost to find kills per point, inverted to find the points per kill).



    The railhead has a 0.6667 chance to hit, a 0.8333 chance to penetrate, and a 0.5 chance to destroy after penetrating. Multiplied, that gives a 0.2778 chance of destroying.

    A railhead costing 165pts will therfore cost 594pts per kill (0.2778 divided by the cost to find kills per point, inverted to find the points per kill).



    The ionhead has a 0.6667 chance to hit one shot, a 0.1667 chance to penetrate and 0.1667 chance to glance, and 0.5 chance to destroy after penetrating, 0.1667 chance to destroy after glancing. Multiplied, that give a 0.0741 chance to destroy.

    To factor in the other shots, you get the chance of not destroying with the first shot, 0.9259, multiply by the chance of not destroying with the second shot, 0.9259, multiply again by the chance of not destroying with the third shot, 0.9259, and then work out the chance of destroying from the calculated chance of not destroying. That is 0.9259 x 0.9259 x 0.9259 = 0.7938, 1 - 0.7938 = 0.2062.

    An ionhead costing 145pts will therefore cost 703.3pts per kill (0.2062 divided by the cost to find kills per point, inverted to find the points per kill).



    A submunition covering 6 storm troopers will kill 3.3333 on average, which means the railhead costs 49.5 points per kill. A deathrain will kill 1.25 storm troopers on average, which means a deathrain costs 44.8pts per kill.

    Had the template covered 7 storm troopers, the railhead would cost 42.4pts per kill, making it more efficient than the deathrain.

    Had the railhead been using its burst cannons against the storm troopers as well, there would only need to be 4 under the template to costs 42.4pts per kill. If there were only 3, the deathrain is more efficient.

    The deathrain isn't as good as a railhead against medium infantry. But it's not that bad either.
    Last edited by onlainari; October 12th, 2005 at 11:40.
    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru View Post
    You have the option for instance of infiltrating, outflanking, pillboxing, or anti assault.


    And that's just with the Kroot.

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