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Biel-Tan Army, need advice...

2K views 38 replies 5 participants last post by  Emp. 
#1 · (Edited)
Hi

I started to build a Eldar army becose I liked to paint them. I have never playd 40k only warhammer fantasy.

So far I have:

1 Farseer

2 Warlocks

5 Fire Dragons, inc Exerch

5 Swooping Hawks, inc Exerch

5 Dark Reapers, inc Exerch

7 Dire avangers (old metalic)

5 Howling Banshees

1 Vyper

1 Support Wheapon (D-Cannon)


So far I have just painted guys I thot was fun to paint. I realy liked the Swooping Hawks. Im not realy a fast painter. One guy takes 7-10 h to finich. The cool guys takes 25 h or so it dosent go very fast.

I was planing to paint the Falcon next.

Is this a good base?

Any comment :)
 
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#2 ·
You've got variety for sure, Anti-Tank, Anti-Infantry and Anti-Marine, but squad sizes are really lacking. The next thing to do would be to increase the sizes of your Banshees, Fire Dragons and maybe your Swooping Hawks. Perhaps after that get some Wave Serpents for them, or get some Guardians and a Falcon perhaps. If your playing style is more aggrsssive probably better to go with larger Aspect Squads in a Wave Serpent, but if you're more defensive then Guardians and a Falcon may be a better choice.
 
#3 ·
To compliate what Nebulas said, you need to equip each squad for it's specific purpose. Fire Dragons need to get into range unharmed and fast, buy them a Wave Serpent and they can. They are also vulnerable to assaults, so they need to kill or cripple whatever they fire at so it won't attack them back so hard. Max out the squad size and arm their Wave Serpent with a Star cannon to get rid of the problem.

See my point? You should have a clear focus on what you want from your units and configure them according to it.

It's a good start, anyway, by all means. (Y)
 
#4 ·
So its not a good Idé to put the Fire Dragons in a Falcon? (then I cant have more then 6...) I was planing to get 2 more bansheed and 1 exerch.

I red a few lines that the Dire Avangers is not that good in a Biel-Tan army... I dont realy understand way. I have the exerch and two more unpainted btw.

I also plan to get 1 more heavy support platform. And a Serpent for the Banshee.

I dont realy feel like geting the guardians, they are plastic and u need so meny of them. I will get boring for me to paint them.
 
#5 ·
So its not a good Idé to put the Fire Dragons in a Falcon? (then I cant have more then 6...)
See here for my views on Fire Dragons and Falcons: http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/showthread.php?p=480804#post480804

I was planing to get 2 more bansheed and 1 exerch.
Although Banshees are good, I don't like them for a couple of reasons. First of all is in the new Transport rules they have to perform a special manoeuver in order to Assault straight out of their Wave Serpent, and I don't like how this causes your attack to slow down somewhat. I prefer to just use Fire Dragons for my anti-marine needs.

I red a few lines that the Dire Avangers is not that good in a Biel-Tan army... I dont realy understand way. I have the exerch and two more unpainted btw.
Generally speaking people prefer to use Guardians because Guardians have more options available, and msot players feel they have a better cost vs efficiency ratio. I disagree with this and I'm a big fan of Dire Avengers in a Wave Serpent, because they are incredibly effective at demolishing light infantry. You can see a move in depth explanation of my views on Dire Avengers in this Article.

I also plan to get 1 more heavy support platform. And a Serpent for the Banshee.

I dont realy feel like geting the guardians, they are plastic and u need so meny of them. I will get boring for me to paint them.
Good choice with the extra Support Platform, they make a surprising good support unit for an army which has a lot of Wave Serpents, but as you've probably guessed, I'm not a big fan of Banshees. I agree about the Guardians, I often just can't be bothered with them, so it's probably better just to stick to the models you like. :)
 
#6 ·
AndEng said:
So its not a good Idé to put the Fire Dragons in a Falcon? (then I cant have more then 6...)
Some people think so, but the problem is that the Dragons won't be doing what they're good at then. Killing bunches of marines, that is. A common misconception is that Fire Dragons are good for hunting tanks, the codex portrays them that way and their equipment suggests it. In fact, they are much better off hunting Marines or generally 3+ or 2+ save infantry. If you want to kill tanks, kill them at range with heavy weapons.

When only 6, they usually can't kill enough to be saved from being assaulted.

AndEng said:
I red a few lines that the Dire Avangers is not that good in a Biel-Tan army... I dont realy understand way. I have the exerch and two more unpainted btw.
Dire Avengers are OK in a mechanized Biel-Tan army, but that's about the only army I'd consider using them in. You shouldm't use the Exarch, though... he only gives them a small close combat capability which is always points better spent on preventing combat in the first place.

AndEng said:
I was planing to get 2 more bansheed and 1 exerch.
Good, but you should get 4 more Banshees + Exarch since they are shock troops. They need to strike hard before being caught in a prolonged combat.

AndEng said:
I also plan to get 1 more heavy support platform. And a Serpent for the Banshee.
You should only need one platform, especially if you play an offensive army where you are better off with Falcons as Heavy Support choices. Take a look in the Eldar Tactica thread at the top of the page, it contains a lot of good stuff on aspect warriors and most other stuff. Great that you get a Serpent for the banshees. (Y)

AndEng said:
I dont realy feel like geting the guardians, they are plastic and u need so meny of them. I will get boring for me to paint them.
In Biel-tan, you are better off without them. Get Vypers for elites instead. And i agree with the painting part, i have 70 Guardians myself... 50 painted. ;)
 
#7 ·
Good, but you should get 4 more Banshees + Exarch since they are shock troops. They need to strike hard before being caught in a prolonged combat.
I disagree with this for a reason which you've alrady pointed out. Beil-Tan are a shock army, they need to strike quickly without giving the enemy a chance to retaliate, and I feel that the way Banshees must be deployed from a Serpent nowadays means that it slows down your advance, not by much, but by enough to allow your opponent to react somewhat to your coming assault, this is one of the reasons I think Mech Beil-Tan is better filled with shooty troops (Dire Avengers and Fire Dragons) in Wave Serpents, rather than Banshees and the likes.

You should only need one platform, especially if you play an offensive army where you are better off with Falcons as Heavy Support choices.
I feel that generally, using two Platforms is more beneficial than it would appear;
If you deploy both your Platforms (same unit) on one flank as your first deployment choice your enemy is going to think that you're going to continue to deploy your army there because they probably think that you've already "invested a lot of points" in that one flank and they will deploy one of their heavy support choices either to counter it (same flank), or to avoid it (opposite flank). Their Heavy Support choice is *probably* going to cost more than your Support Weapons did, and this gives you an oppertunity to capitalise on your opponents "mistake".
If they deployed on the same flank as the Support Weapons then you deploy the rest of your army (the shock elements in the Wave Serpents) on the other flank, which means that their more expensive heavy support choice which they deployed will be left high and dry until you are ready to attack it.
If they deploy their heavy support on the opposite flank from your support weapon then you continue to deploy your entire army on the same flank as the support weapons, producing exactly the same result as the last scenario. With two Platforms it also means your Support Weapons can also have a larger impact on the game and they may bait your opponent into trying to attack them because he sees them is a significant threat and this could potentially distract him from the more dangerous elements of your army (the stuff in the Wave Serpents).
Had you tried the same with just 1 support weapon the enemy may not worry about the Support Weapon and continue to deploy in a normal fashion, they are also unlikely to be baited into trying to destroy the support weapon because singularly it isn't a big threat and the Support Weapon probably won't have a particularly large impact on the game.
 
#8 ·
But when playing a fast Biel-tan army, the enemy is probably not going to worry about being shot up by rng 24" weapons. You have will come to them anyway to use the squads in the Serpents, so the Support Weapons shouldn't bother them very much in this case. If you are facing someone who has not played against D-cannons before, then you might benefit from it but don't count on it. :rolleyes:

Also, you are right about the Banshees, but he already has five of them so if he wants to use those models this is the best way. In Biel-tan at least. Also, this guy likes to paint, and it will get boring to paint a lot of Fire Dragons. Banshees are really fun to paint IMO. (Y)

Just some thoughts.
// Viktor
 
#9 · (Edited)
But when playing a fast Biel-tan army, the enemy is probably not going to worry about being shot up by rng 24" weapons. You have will come to them anyway to use the squads in the Serpents, so the Support Weapons shouldn't bother them very much in this case. If you are facing someone who has not played against D-cannons before, then you might benefit from it but don't count on it.
Personally, I find Shadow Weavers to be the most effective at the role I mentioned, namely cause they're a threat to infantry through their high strength (although they do allow the enemy Armour Saves) and they can threaten tanks* at long range. That's the real kicker though, as tanks are generally a prized commidity, and the enemy won't really like to loose them to those "annoying" Support Weapons. Also there's the annoyance factor which isn't sometimes apparent for D-Cannons, in that most people don't like being shot at by indirect fire weapons, it can be very irritating - especially if you manage to hit, for example, that Imperial Guard Command squad that your opponent thought was safe.

*I know that the D-Cannon is far more damaging to tanks than a Shadow Weaver, but the D-Cannon really doesn't boast the high range of the Shadow Weavers.

Also, you are right about the Banshees, but he already has five of them so if he wants to use those models this is the best way.
Of course, but were he to buy more Banshees and find that they did infact inhibit his armies "shock attack" value then he may feel that he's wasted more cash on them? Ultimately though it depends if he's concerned about the slight stall in his advance.

Banshees are really fun to paint IMO.
All down to preference...I hate painting Banshees. :x
 
#10 ·
Thanks for all the good tips :)

As I sad, I got the old models of Dire Avangers and the exerch look so cool. If I include him or not thats realy a question for later. If I dont then I have a unit of 9 Avangers (if I dont get a hold of one more old moddel, I realy hate the plastic ones)

I planing for a falcon and its have room for transport, is ther anything that is good to put in there? 6 banshees (I have that when I painten my exerch conversion) or shod I just leve it empty? I realy like the banshee models, and to paint them. At least afther I fixt thos ugly swords a bit.

More fire dragons sounds good, I will not paint more then 10 any way, there u are right Viktor. I like to paint diffrent guys not a lots of the same.

Whats this about Mech Biel-Tan? Is there any other way to play Biel-Tan? If u dont use guardians any way.


I dident put this in my army list but I have also a painted:

Maurgan Ra

Fuegan

Bahroroth


Any good use fore any of them? They was fun to paint anyway :)
 
#11 ·
I planing for a falcon and its have room for transport, is ther anything that is good to put in there? 6 banshees (I have that when I painten my exerch conversion) or shod I just leve it empty? I realy like the banshee models, and to paint them. At least afther I fixt thos ugly swords a bit.

More fire dragons sounds good, I will not paint more then 10 any way, there u are right Viktor. I like to paint diffrent guys not a lots of the same.
You could potentially stick the Dire Avengers in the Falcon...although you're probably better to get them up to 10 size and stick them in a Serpent. If you're not inclined to paint more than 10 Fire Dragons, and like the Banshees then you'd be as well to follow Viktors advice. Get them up to 10 size and put them in a Serpent too.

Whats this about Mech Biel-Tan? Is there any other way to play Biel-Tan? If u dont use guardians any way.
Beil-Tan's variety of troops chocies allows them to be fielded in many ways, but Eldar are an aggresive army, so it's best to make full use of this. "Mech Beil-Tan" is basically a Bil-Tan army that is as fast and hard hitting as possible, and usually this includes all foot Aspect Warriors (Banshees, Dire Avengers, Fire Dragons, etc) being put in transports (Wave Serpents) and most other troops having some for of Enhanced movement (Infiltrating Scorpions, Warp Spider "Jump Packs"). This allows the army to attack rapidly, destroying entire enemy squads very quickly and leaving the enemy no chance to form an effective counter attack (in theory, anyway).

I dident put this in my army list but I have also a painted:

Maurgan Ra

Fuegan

Bahroroth
Generally better to avoid using Special Characters imo, unless it's a one off for a bit of fun, Other than that you could field them as Exarchs for Aspect Squads, but you'd have to make this clear to your opponent so no one gets confused. :)
 
#12 ·
AndEng said:
I planing for a falcon and its have room for transport, is ther anything that is good to put in there? 6 banshees (I have that when I painten my exerch conversion) or shod I just leve it empty? I realy like the banshee models, and to paint them. At least afther I fixt thos ugly swords a bit.
There is in fact one thing that's really good to put in a Falcon, a 5-man Storm Guardian squad with 2 flamers. Just drop them and incinerate a squad at close range to pay back their points, and they complement the rest of your army good since you lack somewhat in anti-horde power except for the Dire Avengers. It is cheap and effective anyway.

Nebulas said:
Personally, I find Shadow Weavers to be the most effective at the role I mentioned, namely cause they're a threat to infantry through their high strength (although they do allow the enemy Armour Saves) and they can threaten tanks* at long range. That's the real kicker though, as tanks are generally a prized commidity, and the enemy won't really like to loose them to those "annoying" Support Weapons. Also there's the annoying factor which isn't sometimes apparent for D-Cannons, in that most people don't like being shot at by indirect fire weapons, it can be very irritating - especially if you manage to hit, for example, that Imperial Guard Command squad that your opponent thought was safe.
I've never really considered them, but you may be right. However, don't you think that more Falcons are better? They add to the number of vehicles and protects the Wave Serpents in that manner, they are also far more mobile and can claim objectives.
But then, if he wants diversity they could be a good choice i guess...

AndEng said:
Whats this about Mech Biel-Tan? Is there any other way to play Biel-Tan? If u dont use guardians any way.
Mechanized is the most popular version of the Biel-tan army, it is based on Aspect warrior squads mounted in Wave Serpents in order to have them fulfil their roles.
 
#13 · (Edited)
Question for Nebulas on one of his posts up above:

Although Banshees are good, I don't like them for a couple of reasons. First of all is in the new Transport rules they have to perform a special manoeuver in order to Assault straight out of their Wave Serpent,
I want to get Banshees, but the no "first turn assault after disembarking" keeps me from starting them. Just interested to know what maneuver allows your Banshees to attack straight out of the Serpent?
 
#14 ·
Viktor said:
There is in fact one thing that's really good to put in a Falcon, a 5-man Storm Guardian squad with 2 flamers. Just drop them and incinerate a squad at close range to pay back their points, and they complement the rest of your army good since you lack somewhat in anti-horde power except for the Dire Avengers. It is cheap and effective anyway.
U probebly think Im anoing now ;)

but way 5 and not 6 guardians?
 
#15 ·
There is in fact one thing that's really good to put in a Falcon, a 5-man Storm Guardian squad with 2 flamers. Just drop them and incinerate a squad at close range to pay back their points, and they complement the rest of your army good since you lack somewhat in anti-horde power except for the Dire Avengers. It is cheap and effective anyway.
You have to be careful with sticking a unit in the Falcon though, because you don't want to expose it to too much fire, and transporting a unit into battle usually does this.

I've never really considered them, but you may be right. However, don't you think that more Falcons are better? They add to the number of vehicles and protects the Wave Serpents in that manner, they are also far more mobile and can claim objectives.
But then, if he wants diversity they could be a good choice i guess...
A Falcon is "superior" in many ways, and your points are valid. It's fast, it's resilient, it's more fluffy (I suppose) and it can claim objectives, but despite all this, a good Falcon is weighing in at ~200 points. Those Support Weapons are but 90 points. Where he doesn't have enough points for Falcons, Support Weapons are a worthy investment. Anthong couple of points are that generally, a lot of your points in a Mech Beil-Tan army are taken up in the troops section, which often means there are Heavy Support slots left open anyway. The last point is deployment; a mech Beil-Tan army is most effective it it can load one of it's flanks, then roll up the enemy flank and sweep across the enemy battle line, destroying all in their path. The more tanks he has the more deployment room it takes which could make deployment an issue and mean some "spare" tanks aren't loaded into this aggressive flank, and thus causing him to "invest points" in units which aren't going to support his main strategy in the best fashion. The Support Weapons, however, are small, can be hidden, and can be placed on either flank and you don't need to worry about their survival.

I want to get Banshees, but the no "first turn assault after disembarking" keeps me from starting them. Just interested to know what maneuver allows your Banshees to attack straight out of the Serpent?
This is a rather well known manoeuver, so I didn't think I would've had to explain that in my earlier post otherwise I would have, so my apologies for that oversight earlier. Anyway, here's what you: in the case of Banshees in a Wave Serpent, you use the full extent of the Wave Serpents movement (up to 24") to get within assault range of the target enemy unit (you have to make sure your target is within 13"-15" of the Wave Serpent access ramp at the rear) and then you wait - you don't disembark (I know that you can't anyway) the Banshees. You wait till next turn (the enemy will either retreat at this point or push forwards, this is why it was critical that you moved the Wave Serpent within a certain range of the enemy - so that they are not close enough to block the access ramp, but not far enough away that they can retreat out of charge range) and then you disembark your Banshees, move them, Fleet of Foot, then charge into assault with your target. It looks simple on paper, but you'll have to get a knack for getting the Wave Serpent's proximity to the enemy correctly. As you can see, it does slow your advance slightly because you have to wait one turn before the assault, and this is the main reason I don't employ it.

but way 5 and not 6 guardians?
Simply ebcause you're only using the squad for the two Flamers, and thus you only need the smallest unit you can get. You could add a 6th Guardian, but why would you need to? Your Flamers will take care of your target and your protected from enemy fire because you're in a transport. A 6th Guardian is wasted points, really.
 
#18 ·
Nebulas said:
You have to be careful with sticking a unit in the Falcon though, because you don't want to expose it to too much fire, and transporting a unit into battle usually does this.
Yes, but when you only have a little Guardian squad in it your opponents are more likely to worry about the Wave Serpent with Aspect warriors in them. And it may even be a good thing that it attracts fire, since the Falcon can take a lot more punishment than Wave Serpents and is usually cheaper, even with Guardians in it.

Nebulas said:
A Falcon is "superior" in many ways, and your points are valid. It's fast, it's resilient, it's more fluffy (I suppose) and it can claim objectives, but despite all this, a good Falcon is weighing in at ~200 points. Those Support Weapons are but 90 points. Where he doesn't have enough points for Falcons, Support Weapons are a worthy investment.
Ah well, good point that support weapons are cheap-butt heavy support choices. I came to think of another thing when you mentioned the flanking strategy, Distort cannons are perfect for protecting your own opposite flank from the enemy advance, then they can either choose to fight your aspect warriors or march into range of the D-cannons. What do you say, Neb? :rolleyes:
 
#19 ·
Viktor said:
Yes, but when you only have a little Guardian squad in it your opponents are more likely to worry about the Wave Serpent with Aspect warriors in them. And it may even be a good thing that it attracts fire, since the Falcon can take a lot more punishment than Wave Serpents and is usually cheaper, even with Guardians in it.
~ Not totally true because if your opponent knows how much tougher and stronger a Falcon is than a Wave Serpeant AND knows it can transport something, they will shoot at it, and once it goes down, that squad is walkin'. BUT, if they also know how hard it is to destroy and know it can't carry a large squad, they might ignore it and shoot at the Wave Serpeant because they will be carrying a larger squad.
"In all honesty, there is a flip-side to every possibility someone can think of, so even if you think you know how your opponent thinks, he might be thinking that you know what he's thinking and do the opposite." (WTF? :), talk about a confusing yet powerful statement).

Viktor said:
Ah well, good point that support weapons are cheap-butt heavy support choices. I came to think of another thing when you mentioned the flanking strategy, Distort cannons are perfect for protecting your own opposite flank from the enemy advance, then they can either choose to fight your aspect warriors or march into range of the D-cannons. What do you say, Neb? :rolleyes:
~I'll (maybe) speak before Neb on this one, don't know if it'll be any better though. A D-cannon is very powerful and is a blast and pinning, the problem might be its lack of range and that it's a guess weapon. So really by taking a d-cannon, you're taking a chance on you scatter-dice-skill. Yes, I do recognize that taking anything in an army is always a risk, but if you aren't sure about trusting the scatter dice, I wouldn't recommend taking this, instead, go for something that has a better chance of hitting the target.
 
#22 ·
Yes, but when you only have a little Guardian squad in it your opponents are more likely to worry about the Wave Serpent with Aspect warriors in them. And it may even be a good thing that it attracts fire, since the Falcon can take a lot more punishment than Wave Serpents and is usually cheaper, even with Guardians in it.
Indeed, but the Wave Serpent can't dish out the kind of firepower a Falcon can, and vs the energy field some people feel S9+ weapons are wasted, so would fire at the Falcon to make "full use of them". The main issue with the Falcon and transporting troops is that you have to get close to the enemy to deploy, and when your close it is easier to take advantge of the Falcon's rear, etc etc. It's all down to preference in this case, however. You either like putting units in the Falcon or you don't.

Distort cannons are perfect for protecting your own opposite flank from the enemy advance, then they can either choose to fight your aspect warriors or march into range of the D-cannons. What do you say, Neb
Indeed, theya re good at protecting your refused flank from the enemy advance, but then again, why would you need/want to protect it? If the enemy sends their forces down your refused flank then let them - it makes it an easier job for you to deal with their main line because they are investing their forces on other parts of the battlefield other than the critical point of the battlefield, where as if they realise they're gonna take horrible casualties from a D-Cannon if they advance, they may be less enthusiastic about budging. Then again if they don't budge then you've managed to sieze the initialive on both flanks, and pin the enemy in place. The deciding factor really is that the D-Cannon isn't particularly important to your success, in which case the points may be better spent elsewhere, unlike in the Shadow Weaver's case where the effect on the enemy deployment can potentially ruin your enemies chances of resisting your attack on the loaded flank.
 
#23 ·
Hey Neb, I know this might be a little of topic but I'm gonna throw the question out here first to see if you or anyone else knows; The Wave Serpeant's force field states that every shooting weapon strength over 8 counts as 8. Now If a chaos Lascannon with Tank Hunter shoots at it, does he recieve the +1 or no because the Chaos codex says roll, then add one, not add one then roll?
 
#26 ·
Nebulas said:
Indeed, theya re good at protecting your refused flank from the enemy advance, but then again, why would you need/want to protect it? If the enemy sends their forces down your refused flank then let them - it makes it an easier job for you to deal with their main line because they are investing their forces on other parts of the battlefield other than the critical point of the battlefield, where as if they realise they're gonna take horrible casualties from a D-Cannon if they advance, they may be less enthusiastic about budging. Then again if they don't budge then you've managed to sieze the initialive on both flanks, and pin the enemy in place. The deciding factor really is that the D-Cannon isn't particularly important to your success, in which case the points may be better spent elsewhere, unlike in the Shadow Weaver's case where the effect on the enemy deployment can potentially ruin your enemies chances of resisting your attack on the loaded flank.
Ok then maby I shode paint the Weaver first insted of the D-Cannon, I have not got that far on my platform or is it a idé to use 2 different wepons?
 
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