Welcome to Librarium Online!
It seems most lists that I see with Winged Hive Tyrants use 2xScything Talons. Effective? Sure thing. Optimized? I'd have to say no. I started with this beast for a while, and then on a whim decided to proxy him as 2xTL-Devourers. After the game I promptly converted him to such and have not looked back.
Assume both tyrants, in addition to winged, have warp field, toxin sacs, and flesh hooks. The CC tyrant will have Toxic Miasma and 2xScything Talons. The Dev tyrant will have enhanced senses and 2xTL-Devourers.
CC Tyrant = 188 points / Dev Tyrant = 200 points.
Lets say you're going for a marine unit 10 man strong starting at > 18" away.
Turn 1 moves to within 18"
Turn 2 moves to within 6" and assaults
- 6 attacks on the charge with hitting on 3's = 4 hits avg, wounding on 2's averages ~3.334 marines dead on the charge.
- Enemy turn two has 5 attacks hitting on 3's =~ 3.334 hits avg, wounding on 2's averages ~2.778 dead marines every subsequent combat phase.
It would take approximately 4 assault phases for the Tyrant to wipe out the squad if the marines don't break. And that's assuming there's no Vet Srg with a PFist in the squad that has the change of killing the tyrant.
Turn 1 moves to within 18"
- Fires 12 str5 twin-linked living ammo shots, hitting on 3's with enhanced senses =~ 10.667 hits, wounding on 3's averages ~9.5 armor saves, killing ~3.15 marines
Turn 2 moves to within 6" and fires
- Same deal as above, killing another ~3.15 marines. Also keep in mind when you do enough wounds to cover the entire unit, you can pick out the model to take the first save... giving you a chance to kill the hidden PFist / las cannon / plasma gun without going through the whole squad.
After firing on Turn 2, assaults
- 4 attacks on the charge hitting on 3's = ~2.667 hits, wounding on 2's averages ~2.222 wounds. This leaves only ~1.5 marines left on average, which would then be killed in the next assault phase.
Of course, this is using averages, so sometimes you'll get lucky and others your opponent will.. But over time, the 2xTL-Devourer tyrant will outperform the CC tyrant. Especially when you consider how easily it can drop a speeder (rolling ~10.667 dice needing only 5's to glance should give you ~3.5 glances needing only a 5 to destroy).
And this for only 12 more points.
Id say for a winged Tyrant thats the way to go. Nice anaylsis moob. Too bad your tyrant will be ugly with all those stubby little arms.
Id love to see how you converted it to have the arms oriented the correct way. Do you have some pictures you could share?
Unfortunately, I don't have a digital camera, and besides, my painting ability leaves a lot to be desired :p
As for what I did, I ended up clipping off the ends of some of the extra TMC death spitter weapons and some of the ends of some devourers. Attaching the devourer ends to the cut death spitter arms gives you a bit better size ratio for your tyrant.
That's th reason why I'm building a winged deviltyrant, I really need such a fast, hard hitting beast to aid my godzilla army.
In a squad of 10 marines assuming that no leadership tests are failed, the CC tyrant would be roughly 1/2 turn behind the devourer tyrant in clearing out a 10 man squad. A devourer tyrant would clear out the 10 marines at the start of your turn 3, where the CC tyrant would need till end your turn 4. Granted this one on one battle. So yes the devourer is a better base marine killer.
However, I don't feel that base marine killer is the most optimized role for tyrant. While its true that the more troops you kill the better, the way you go about it is more important. For example, it is most obvious that genestealers are best unit for killing base marines. Hive tyrants are very useful against enemy elite troops and hq's. While these aren't the main target for your tyrants, you have to tackle these troops or else they will cause a lot of havoc. In theory, a devourer winged tyrant and a broodlord loaded for character killing would be the best combination. However, broodlords are way too slow to bring pressure on the enemy and engage them on your terms. Therefore, for me at least, a flying tyrant (often with implant attack) is how i deal with enemy elite and leave the marine killing to genestealers and such.
I think what moob was trying to say was that even though you've tooled your tyrant for ranged it is still formidable in CC as well. Even against Elites and HQ units the 12 dev shots will still produce some decent results. That in addition to the first round of actually doing damage is worthwhile to look into.
I do not criticize. I do not offend. All I offer is my opinion which means only as much as you make it.
I've gone the half hearted way. i gave my tyrant st and tl devourers with appropriate biomorphs (wings of course). I've only played one game with it and it perfomred well. It took out a whirlwind, 1SM, 1 SM commander, a inquisitor and retinue with lots of plasma killy stuff (2v2 battle, deamon hunters were the allies) and a GK dreadnought. With the re-rolls for the dev, i think i only missed once, and didn't wound maybe once. I love the re-rolls.
If the tyrant is going to have that much firepower, doesn't it makes senses to take the wings off and have him just hoof it? Lose the warp field and extra strength too... you can get him down to 101 points. Then you could have two for the cost you are talking about, and a much much higher ouch-dishing to points-cost ratio. I have one of these in my standard army design.
If I have wings on there I would rather, again, drop the warp field and put on things like acid maw and implant attack.. 5 attacks versus 3 attacks is a significant difference by itself, but it becomes an enormous difference when you get rerolls to wound, double your wounds inflicted, etc. This guy hits way harder than the flying devourer tyrant in CC and costs way less too... around 150 to 165 points. And you have to figure that anything with wings is going to be mixing it up with nasty CC units.
A 200 point tyrant of any type is just asking to get punished IMO. In my experience 90% of the weapons directed against your tyrant which ignore its 3+ save, will also ignore a 2+ save anyway. This is especially true of a tyrant which is rumbling dreadnaughts and characters in close combat. And the 6+ invulnerable is almost useless.
Still, it is not a bad design. There is a similar phenomenon with rendy warriors, especially if they are not leaping. For 3 points you can trade in one attack for a lot of firepower.
With the wings, the maneuverability is great and the effective 30" range pretty much gaurantees a round one target. Though I do take an additional walking tyrant with 2xTL-Devs, also. :pOriginally Posted by Drake DunI've always felt the Toxin sacs were a worthwhile upgrade. Much easier to wound on 3's than 4's, even with living ammo. It also allows for penetration of armor 11, and easier to kill the armor 10 speeders.Originally Posted by Drake DunYou're comparing point costs with dropping biomorphs that you could drop from the dev tyrant. Drop the warp field and he's down to 165, also. And does rerolling wounds on the first round of combat really pay off? At strength 6 with toxin sacs, you'll wound *most* things on 2's already. And the double your wounds only helps against models with > 1 wound to begin with. It doesn't work when tied up with a 1 wound a piece cc unit.Originally Posted by Drake Dun
And personally, I've always found that Tyrants were not the best against nasty CC units. It takes too many kills to reach the hidden PFist, and against most IC's, he'll only be going simultaneously without the AG-I biomorph. Which, if given with acid maw, implant attack, toxic miasma, etc., you're going to get back up to close to 200 points.
On top of that, your wings allow you to pick and choose when you want to get into assault, as you'll be moving faster / as fast as most units on the board. A nasty cc unit that would kill you? Go around or lure it to a stealer unit that you're screening.I guess it depends on which army types you typically go against. I find warp field invaluable against a 4 ML devastator squad. Also all those Ork rokkits.Originally Posted by Drake Dun
My tyrant doesn't die often, as with the 12" move, you can typically use cover to avoid the fire you don't want directed at you while still getting shots yourself. But then sometimes you want it to take all the fire it can get to allow genestealers to get that much closer.
wow..i just got the codex but i think im guna make me a dev tyrant when i get the cash for moddles