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  1. #1
    Senior Member squall14's Avatar
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    the use (or mis-use) of Flamers

    ok. here's the deal. I have personally NEVER seen the flamer used on crisis, nor in battle reports. plus there's hardly any tactics for using it well. but in my browsing (on "The Guide to Mech Tau" site) there is a table showing how many marines need to be under the template to as effective as/more effective than another crisis weapon. it went like so:

    Missile pod - 1.66
    Burst Cannon - 2
    Fusion Blaster - 2.5
    Plasma Rifle - 2.5(Single Shot)/5(Rapid Fire)
    (table by "Spooky" on total tau)

    this makes the flamer the cheapest AND most effective weapon available to crisis at a 6"-8" range. the question is: Does this make the Plasma Rifle, Flamer, MT (nicknamed 'Blowtorch' config) a good idea?

    TAU PLAYER - GREY KNIGHTS PLAYER - WOOD ELVES PLAYER (kind of)

    "Grey Knight terminators aren't 'good.' THEY'RE F****N AWESOME!!"

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  3. #2
    The deep down truth Rikimaru's Avatar
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    724 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by squall14
    ok. here's the deal. I have personally NEVER seen the flamer used on crisis, nor in battle reports. plus there's hardly any tactics for using it well. but in my browsing (on "The Guide to Mech Tau" site) there is a table showing how many marines need to be under the template to as effective as/more effective than another crisis weapon. it went like so:

    Missile pod - 1.66
    Burst Cannon - 2
    Fusion Blaster - 2.5
    Plasma Rifle - 2.5(Single Shot)/5(Rapid Fire)
    (table by "Spooky" on total tau)

    this makes the flamer the cheapest AND most effective weapon available to crisis at a 6"-8" range. the question is: Does this make the Plasma Rifle, Flamer, MT (nicknamed 'Blowtorch' config) a good idea?
    Why would you bother, the MP can take out two Marines if your lucky and its effective against lightly armed vehicles etc, Fusion is brilliant it kills anything it hits and is awesome anti armour and has a 12" effective range.
    With the MP or Fusion coupled to Plasma you have enough to kill 3 marines a turn and the MP is more of a match for the range of the 24" Plasma shot and the Fusion is a good match at rapid fire range.
    You really do not want to be in 6" range of a Marine unit with something that weak that offers saves (I would only use the MP and Plasma at range for the same reason MP offer saves to Marines), the only benefit and its a very small one is the flamer negates cover saves.
    If you want to get to within 6" of any enemy with a flamer feel free me I would not be that confident of its effectiveness, I use the Helios because I know I will usually kill what I am hitting.
    So no its not a good idea, yes its cheap but its also not very good and value is related to effectiveness.
    1984

  4. #3
    Senior Member squall14's Avatar
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    but the idea is that you can flame from between 6" & 8" and then assault move 6" away and out of assault range of the footslogger marines.

    anyway, if you're really scared of being assaulted by the remaining 2-4 marines, then you should use the almighty circular drone tactic and get your shas'el out of there. that's if they haven't routed by then.
    TAU PLAYER - GREY KNIGHTS PLAYER - WOOD ELVES PLAYER (kind of)

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  5. #4
    The deep down truth Rikimaru's Avatar
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    724 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by squall14
    but the idea is that you can flame from between 6" & 8" and then assault move 6" away and out of assault range of the footslogger marines.

    anyway, if you're really scared of being assaulted by the remaining 2-4 marines, then you should use the almighty circular drone tactic and get your shas'el out of there. that's if they haven't routed by then.
    MMMM think we will ignore the obvious Drone comment, and get to the relevent points, the flamer template is not much use at 8" or 6" for that matter, to be effective you have to cover as many models as possible, to do that you have to be very very close and with a 6" assault move your going to be lucky to get out of range if your close enough to make the flamer effective
    I do not want to be that close with an XV8 regardless of any protection it may have and lets face it with a Flamer and 2 plasma shots at a 9 man squad you will be lucky to kill 4 and normal Marine squad LDS is min 8 so not much chance of routing.
    1984

  6. #5
    Senior Member squall14's Avatar
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    let's move on.

    consider i have 3 shas'ui, all with flamers, Plasma rifles and Multi-trackers. if i get close enough, i can easily cover 4 models a template, plus the 6 plasma rifle shots.

    flamers:
    12 shots
    12 hits (negates our low BS of 3!)
    6 wounds
    2 dead

    Plasma Rifles:
    6 shots
    3 hits
    2.5 wounds
    2.5 dead (no armour saves)

    considering there's only 4 marines under each template (considering that they space out), that punches a nice hole in any small tactical squad, or full squad for that matter. plus the fact that in the new codex you can twin link Flamers (re-roll to-wound rolls).
    Last edited by squall14; February 13th, 2006 at 15:41.
    TAU PLAYER - GREY KNIGHTS PLAYER - WOOD ELVES PLAYER (kind of)

    "Grey Knight terminators aren't 'good.' THEY'RE F****N AWESOME!!"

  7. #6
    The deep down truth Rikimaru's Avatar
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    724 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by squall14
    let's move on.

    consider i have 3 shas'ui, all with flamers, Plasma rifles and Multi-trackers. if i get close enough, i can easily cover 4 models a template, plus the 6 plasma rifle shots.

    flamers:
    12 shots
    12 hits (negates our low BS of 3!)
    6 wounds
    2 dead

    Plasma Rifles:
    6 shots
    3 hits
    2.5 wounds
    2.5 dead (no armour saves)

    considering there's only 4 marines under each template (considering that they space out), that punches a nice hole in any small tactical squad, or full squad for that matter. plus the fact that in the new codex you can twin link Flamers (re-roll to-wound rolls).
    3 Shas,Ui with Plasma and Fusion at 12" 6 AP2 and 3 AP1 shots 4+ to hit and 2+ to wound = 4 dead (usually more) so about the same, but I can hit and kill termies, tough MC/IC, armour (ANY ARMOUR) etc etc all of which the Flamer can do very little or nothing against.

    Yes the new codex may well offer twin linked flamers (still wont use them) but it still does not negate the simple fact that XV8's should not be that close unless they are guaranteed to kill their points equiv or at least be reasonably certain they can kill enough to avoid being chased down or slaughtered in CC and Flamers just dont do that at least at the moment (new codex we will wait and see).

    Anyway its your funeral if you want to use Flamers go ahead, but the only real way to find out if they work is by playtesting, (stats are not much use really) I have had my say and its only my opinion.
    I have used them(when I knew no better) and they were crap.
    1984

  8. #7
    Senior Member squall14's Avatar
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    but 4-5 marines a turn will make a nice clean-up unit practically (or statistically) parallel to a Helios squad, amd cheaper. plus i will be smart enough not to use these against termies. helios is for marines and termies. Blowtorch is for marines and scouts (does well against both!)
    TAU PLAYER - GREY KNIGHTS PLAYER - WOOD ELVES PLAYER (kind of)

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  9. #8
    Shrubs for the Blood God Undead Bonzi's Avatar
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    207 (x5)

    The problem with that Squall, is that most people don't consider Elite Crisis Suits clean up units. Most people use the Crisis suits for hard hitting punch and leave the cleanup to Drones, FW's and Kroot. If your loadout is crisis suit heavy your flamer trick is fine, though I would never use it, but when you run all Monet suits as I do, you cant afford to set aside three of your 5(max) suits just for cleanup.

    As Rikki said, you gotta be close to use flamers and its seriously doubtfull that your gonna be able to jump out of LOS let alone out of assault range. Even if you break that marine squad your three suits are gonna be sitting ducks in any but the most perfect circumstances.
    The only honorable options left to we combatants is seppuku or semantics...which amount to the same thing really.
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  10. #9
    The deep down truth Rikimaru's Avatar
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    724 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by Undead Bonzi
    The problem with that Squall, is that most people don't consider Elite Crisis Suits clean up units. Most people use the Crisis suits for hard hitting punch and leave the cleanup to Drones, FW's and Kroot. If your loadout is crisis suit heavy your flamer trick is fine, though I would never use it, but when you run all Monet suits as I do, you cant afford to set aside three of your 5(max) suits just for cleanup.

    As Rikki said, you gotta be close to use flamers and its seriously doubtfull that your gonna be able to jump out of LOS let alone out of assault range. Even if you break that marine squad your three suits are gonna be sitting ducks in any but the most perfect circumstances.
    Exactly I use Monat suits and I aint gonna waste valuable elite slots on flamers. The only time an XV8 should be close to the enemy is if you can be 80% certain your going to destroy/kill what your going to hit and if the XV8 has any chance of dying next turn whatever it hits needs to be a worthwhile enough target points wise for the XV8 to have been worth the sacrifice. and flamers cannot do that.
    1984

  11. #10
    Member Straylight's Avatar
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    Well, taking the side of the Keeper for a moment, gentlemen, Squall does in fact have a valid tactic if he's willing to get that close with a full crisis team, and his Blowtorch team comes out a good deal cheaper than your Helios.

    Not everybody runs Monats all the time, and not everybody runs the same configs. One of the things that attracted me to the Tau to begin with is that they can be tailored to a very specific playstyle -if you folks got your way, every Tau player in the world would play the exact same list with the exact same tactics.

    And that's no fun.
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