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I was thinking, just now. Ppl around here say it's a waste to get your fex into CC, that's pretty much true probably, but it still scares the **** out of ppl,
what if you make a real cheap fex, just the fex with 2 sets of ST, 101 pts.
not a lot of points, and it can be used as a shield for other creatures or just for distraction. And if it DOES happen to get into CC it can still dish some damage...
ofcourse it could be a waste of a slot, but i think against other cc-ish armies, most would try and get out of the way of it, so it's kinda like a lictor, there to scare the **** out of ppl, but other than that not really usefull...
Why not pay about 13 more points for TL devourers and enhanced senses and have a carnifex which looks just as intimidating, but which actually kills something before it gets lascannoned?
guessed storming the front would be more impressive if u actualy had some CC-morphs to show for it to keep em running from it.
I personally wouldn't find it weird. Maybe it would not be 'as' effective as it could be, but dumbing down the points, and making it a shock unit will have its effect. Now the only area to argue is whether or not distraction is needed, or if you can even redeem those points.
I remember TheHersh (quack!) used to have something called the "Baitfex." 2X Talons, and every defensive upgrade you could slap onto him. Made for an expensive Carnifex, but that one did indeed draw fire.
I proxied it once during a game, and it worked like a charm. You'd be amazed at how many Lascannon shots it'll take to down a fully loaded Carnifex. However, it did eat up a large chunk of points, and I still wonder if it'd been more worthwhile to simply take another squad of Genestealers.
However, I don't believe having a cheap Baitfex is worth it. As ArchonAstroth said, the investment to make it actually useful is so minor that there's no point in not doing it.
well, i figure if most shots are taken on the fex, u can more easily sneak your HQ's in for some slaughter, and it would cut some slack of the genestealers, that might not require EC than?
Well I suppose you could always try it out . If you've got two armies or a friend who doesn't mind putting up with you doing some test battles, run through some quick scenarios using the Baitfex. If you find it to be useful and a good fire magnet, then by all means use it.Originally Posted by necroidthing
However, good players (especially those that know or play Tyranids) will recognize that you're charging that Baitfex in on them to distract them from the Hive Tyrant and the Genestealers sneaking up the side, and thus they won't throw their entire army at the Carnifex. However, even against a player who knows the strategy it can be useful, since ignoring the Baitfex can lead to a nigh-unkillable monstrosity rampaging in your lines since you decided that sneaky Hive Tyrant was more important.
I suppose it then comes down to points cost. In anything under 1500 pts I personally would never try a Baitfex, but using up an FOC slot on one isn't too bad when you can use the other two on a nice Gunfex and a Zoanthrope brood (Does anyone use Biovores? ).
So try some test games, and hopefully it will work out for you. Good luck!
"The death of one man is a tragedy; the death of a million is a statistic."
~Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili Stalin
I started rewriting my original 3ed tactica. About a quarter of the way through I realised how much was invovled. Anyway here are my Carnifex notes. Any constructive comments are appreciated.
A VC armed Carnifex is the only long range, strength 10 weapon in the Tyranid army. Few things in Warhammer can match its 10 strength. It is the best heavy tank destroyer in the Tyranid army. Zoanthropes have a short range, one shot blast. However from turn 1 a Gunfex is blasting away with two or three shots. It also has the advantage of size 3 so it can shot over most terrain. The Barbed Strangler can kill large numbers of troops. The best way for a ‘fex to make back its points is with a ranged weapon. A Gunfex can sit it in cover and blast armour from turn 1.
Carnifexs are slow moving creatures that can be easily outmanoeuvred. CC Carnifexs will need some faster friends to catch its prey. CC Carnifexs have a low number of high strength attacks. Be careful to avoid being caught in tarpit units. You will only have a couple of rounds of combat to get its points back. March by the quickest route to its victim. It is a tough model that can take a lot of fire. It is far better at taking hits than the rest of your army. When is does catch something its in for a lot of pain.
Bad Carnifex Upgrades
- Acid Maw: This gives you re-rolls for you first round of combat. This won’t be that useful unless you are fighting super tough critters. Carnifexs aren’t the best at this.
- Bio-Plasma: Aside from not bypassing saves this has another downside. Bio-Plasma applies out of normal initiative order. On a charge it is possible for it to kill the only model in base contact denying your remaining attacks.
- Crushing Claws: take up a spot that Scything Talons would normally take and replace the Carnifexs 2 base attacks with 1d6 attacks. You are paying 17 points more than Scything Talons to get an average 3.5 attacks compared to a flat 3 attacks. You also have a one third chance of having fewer attacks than you would have with scything talons.
- Implant Attack: Your ‘fex is already instant killing anything toughness 4 or less. You are doing something desperate if you are hunting super tough characters.
- Lash Whip: Usually the Carnifexs 6 toughness will protect it. Your only real danger is a Sargent with a power fist. Buying a lash whip sacrifices a weapon slot which would be better used for scything talons to kill the Sargent sooner.
- Regeneration: this is an extremely expensive bio-morph, which doesn’t work reliably. If you really want regeneration have a look at "Old One Eye".
- Rending Claws: monstrous creatures ignore armour saves and get 2d6 to penetrate armour. 3d6 + 9 to penetrate armour is over kill and wastes a weapon slot.
- Spore Cysts: Not only can you damage yourself firing it, it can explode and damage your ‘fex. This is worst than useless.
- Symbiote Rippers: With Thornback this will give you a 3 to 1 mod against 7 models. The chances of this being useful are extremely rare. See Thornback.
- Thornback: When you win combat this will usually be a -1 or -2 morale mod. There are many fearless units around. Winning combat gives you extra hits which they still make armour saves. Winning combat against Dreadnoughts will give you an extra glancing hit. CC 'fexs aren't recomended and is a pretty expensive upgrade.
- Toxin Sacs (+1 Strength): The only thing you gain is: 1) instant kill toughness 5, which is kind of rare, 2) a better chance to take down super tough critters, not recommended 3) a better chance of taking down a Monolith. Versus any other vehicle, a 9+2D6 penetration roll should be more than sufficient to destroy it.
- Tusked: This only gives you one more attack on the charge. And it costs more than scything talons.
- Twin Linked weapons: If you take two of the same weapons they become twin-linked. The excessive cost of twin-linked weapons just isn’t worth its benefits. Weapons that are already twin lined are assumed to double the number of shots.
Recommended Carnifex Upgrades
- Adrenal Glands +1 I: Two initiative is pretty poor but it beats powerfists. On average you are going to take a few powerfist hits before you kill the last marine. If you expect to get into CC with powerfists this is a good biomorph.
- Adrenal Glands +1 WS: This is the best CC biomorph for a Carnifex. WS 4 greatly improves you survivability in combat. Combined with your 6 toughness you can survive many rounds.
- Bonded Exoskeleton (+1 Toughness): This makes you immune to strength 3 attacks. Yeah the best answer to Howling Banshees. Otherwise it only affects strength 5 through 8 attacks. There is a large range of weapons this affects notably the ubiquitous power fist and plasma gun.
- Enhanced Senses: If you use ranged weapons a must, otherwise a waste.
- Extended Carapace (2+ Save): This is a very expensive upgrade that can be easily bypassed by AP2 weapons. It is good for the hail of small arms fire and AP3 weapons (missiles). If you face lots of missiles it is excellent. If you usually face lots of plasma weapons, lascannons and multi-meltas it’s a waste.
- Flesh Hooks: Are mandatory for a CC Carnifex but are a poor choice for any other type of Carnifex
- Reinforced Chitin (+1 Wound): This is a cheap guaranteed extra wound.
- Spine Banks: are a cheap upgrade to flesh hooks. Being twin-linked you don’t really need ES, but it does help. It can be used on light vehicles or softening troops before the charge. Be careful you may run into situations where a successful Spine Bank shot ends up killing the only enemy model in charge range.
- Tail Weapon: Mace. This is a cheap extra attack when fighting four or more models. Good for a CC ‘fex.
- Tail-Weapon: Scythe. Not as cost effective as the mace, but better if you are seriously outnumbered and it still ignores saves.
- Toxic Miasma: Similar to adrenal glands this has two extra benefits. 1) You can stack it with adrenal glands to effectively getting WS5. 2) Its effects can help any friends attacking the same creature. One word of warning – the wording says "creature" attacking or being attacked not "unit" and you might assume it wouldn’t affect Dreadnoughts etc. Best to discus this before the game.
Equipping the CC Carnifex
Starting with the elite CC ‘fex equipped with two ST and WS are the only options. This leaves 9 points to spend. The only two realistic options are Toxic Miasma or Adrenal Glands +Init. Flesh Hooks are too cheap to pass up for the only time you will be at init 10.
Elite CC ‘fex
2 x Scything talons, Adrenal Glands +WS & +init & flesh hooks - 112 points
2 x Scything talons, Adrenal Glands +WS, toxic miasma & flesh hooks - 114 points
If you want to upgrade it into a heavy support ‘fex buy all the CC upgrades. Reinforced chitin and tail mace are cheap for the extra 20 points. Depending on your opponents it may be worth buying EC or BE. Spending more on a CC fex is not recommended. One variant is to swap a ST & FH for ES, Devourer & spine banks. This gives you two or three rounds of decent support fire. I wouldn’t equip a VC or BS as they are expensive and useless once you get into close combat. I should again recommend against CC ‘fexs. They are slow and unlikely to earn their points. If you want a combat monster consider a flying Tyrant.
Heavy Support CC ‘fex
2 x Scything talons, Adrenal Glands +WS & +init, toxic miasma, tail: mace, reinforced chitin & flesh hooks - 140 points
Scything talons, Adrenal Glands +WS & +init, toxic miasma, tail: mace, reinforced chitin, enhanced senses, devourer and spine banks - 154 points
Equipping ranged Carnifex
The base elite Carnifex starting equipped with ES leaves you 21 points to spend. The only sensible weapons you can afford are two dual devourers. The Dakkafex is cheap and versatile. 8 twin linked, strength 6, reroll to wound shots is nasty. Add to that its 3+ save, toughness 6 and 4 wounds. This guy is effective against marines, skimmers and with a bit of luck dreadnoughts.
Elite Ranged "Dakkafex"
2 x Devourer and Enhanced Senses - 113 points
Heavy Support ranged Carnifex
The Gunfex is going to use its range to sit at the rear of the board or move to hold an adjacent quarter and blast heavy armour. As the Gunfex will specialise in shooting it will be a waste to add any CC biomorphs. The only time you might need them is when holding a flank. Usually if your Gunfex is in close combat things have gone horribly wrong. That’s not to say that they are useless in CC, it can take a long time for a marine to wound toughness 6.
As this is a long range Gunfex start with enhanced senses and a venom cannon. As it will usually be at extreme range the only other weapon worth considering is a barbed strangler. This can penetrate armour and kill troops increasing the Carnifexs versatility. Reinforced Chitin gives you a 25% increase in wounds for a 10% cost. At this range only long range anti-tank weapons can reach you, chiefly missiles and lascannons. Missiles are easily stopped with extended carapace. In practice most people use lascannons. Neither BE or EC help. If you expect to get attacked in CC adrenal glands +WS & a tail weapon: mace is cheap insurance.
Heavy Support ranged "Gunfex"
Enhanced Senses, Venom Canon, Barbed Strangler & Reinforced Chitin - 163 points
Enhanced Senses, Venom Canon, Barbed Strangler & Reinforced Chitin, Adrenal Glands +WS, Tail: mace - 172 points
Last edited by Zerling; March 6th, 2006 at 12:51.
>Tusked: This only gives you one more attack on the charge. And it costs more than scything >talons.
Sometimes one more attack is important in this case its another S9-10 i think 10pts is highly worth it on a CC carnifex. Note normally creatures can only gain 2 extra attacks with ST using tusked your carnifex can go up to a guaranteed 6 attacks on a charge. I don't think this is a bad upgrade at all as it can stack with ST.
>Regeneration: this is an extremely expensive bio-morph, which doesnâ€™t work reliably. If you >really want regeneration have a look at "Old One Eye".
Regeneration Has changed a bit from when it first came in now each turn you can roll a dice for each wound your beast has recieved. put together with a 5 wound carnifex and each turn you have a reasonable chance of increasing the number of wounds on your best by returning one of its lost wounds. If your looking to make a Bait'fex or are just trying to make something that can't die this Biomorph while expensive can drastically increase your survival chances.
>Thornback: is a pretty expensive and useless upgrade for 15 points.
A common tactic for tyranids is to keep a dreadnought entertained with a squad of 20 spine guants. Now its time for payback. The Fex in CC has a limited number of attacks compared to some of your great CC fighters. However he is definately most likely to win the combat except against power weapon weilding foes and certain assault squads. By increasing the number of models hes worth (i'm not sure if i'm allowed to state specifics) you have a much greater chance of freeing your fex to charge someone he wants to.
>Flesh Hooks: Are mandatory for a CC Carnifex but are a poor choice for any other type of Carnifex
Flesh hooks enable you to move into and out of impassable terrain which means that you can hide from CC for a gunfex. (if you have no upgrades fexs are vulnerable to certain assault squads), at one point no terrain penalties is almost a gift. Also i want to utilise all the capabilities of my gun fex and that includes charging a tank if I fail to kill it and having another go with my 3 CC attacks at 9+2D6. it makes it much easier to get to tanks if I don't have to make my already lumbering 6" move around terrain obstacles, this because i only rolled a 4 on 3D6 or in some cases a 1 (its happened not on my fex, but on my spinegaunts and they were assaulting and never made it.)
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I was still editting Thornback when you posted. I think that the jury is still out on regen. I agree if you do buy it reinforced chitin is a must. People have said that it is demoralising when the near dead beast heals. It is my opinion that you want the most toughness 6 wounds you can buy. Regen costs you a quarter of your next 'fex. I can see your point about the flesh hooks. Definately somewhere to put that last unspent point.
After thinking about tusked there is one very important aspect to fighting with Tyranids. Quoting from the last page of this article http://oz.games-workshop.com/games/4...ca/default.htm.A brood that assaults and wipes out an enemy unit generally has hung itself out to dry. The opposing force will vaporize it or countercharge it. A brood that gets locked in combat keeps itself safe, blocks fire lanes, and forces the opponent to throw the unit away or bring in more troops in the Assault Phase to help out. Either way, itâ€™s a winning situation for you.
Last edited by Zerling; March 6th, 2006 at 13:03.