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  1. #1
    Member tyranidfrenzy's Avatar
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    Nid's vs. Marines! Best way to finish them off?

    Hi i'm just wonderin whats the best tactic to defeat a space marine player. He mainly uses standard guns and heavy bolters on his guys and has a tank with lascannons and not sure what else, but its mainly a shooting army. We both playin with a 1000 point army

    Here's whats available to me:

    1 Hive Tyrant with venom cannon and ST

    1 Fex with venom cannon and ST

    3 Warriors with RC and ST

    16 Genestealers with feeder tendrils, EC, ST and RC (I use usually as two squads of

    16 hormagaunts with EC

    16 Spinegaunts (gaunts with spine fists) with EC

    1 Standard Lictor

    1 Zoanthrope

    3 Ripper Swarms

    I'm not askin for anyone to make me an army list, just to give a couple of tips of whats best to use how to use them effectivley. I'm not expecting to use all my models.

    I'm new to this so I have limited knowledge of some rules but I have been reading up and understand the majority of rules E.g FoC, Preferred Enemy, Armor Piercing (on Venom Cannon) and so on.

    Any constructive opinions will be appreciated.

    Thanks

    John

    :hump:


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  3. #2
    Senior Member Hivefleet Hades's Avatar
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    Ok just had a little look at what you have, i would strongly suggest, you get some wings for your tyrant and get it 2X ST, these things are the bane of marine armies, just make sure when you charge, you keep it away from powerfists in units.

    Fex is cool for pinging Tanks, either keeping them stunned till you get in close or getting lucky and popping a tank or two

    Warriors could do with leaping, so that they keep up with your hormies

    Stealers for me seem best as basic stealers, and if i have points to spare its goes into extended carapace only.

    Hormies with EC is debatable it does give them a 1 in 3 chance of surving in CC

    Spinegaunts are cheap cannon fodder, i would not give them EC, there very effective if kept cheap.

    Lictor is a Big Risky Expensively Fragile point sink, You might get lucky Deepstriking in behind a tank and popping it, But i would spend the points on something else.

    if your up Against marines allot or lots of tanks..i would suggest you go out and get another 2 Zoanies as these guys are very cool, devestating to squads of marines and can down most Tanks with ease.
    Army of the heavens, my army waits in hell
    To battle on the earth, for all the souls who fell

  4. #3
    Senior Member andrewthotep's Avatar
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    Welcome to the swarm!

    The main things to bear in mind about the SMs is that they all get great saves, they're good shots, and they have many, many guns that have the AP to shred basic Tyranid creatures. You will just about always own the SMs in close combat, but you have to get your forces into touch range first.

    The things the marine players I play against fear most about the Nids are rending, monstrous creatures, numbers, and speed.

    Rending attacks wound automatically and prevent most armour saves. They can also cut through vehicle armour if you're lucky, or have a lot of attacks.

    Monstrous creatures ignore all but heavy weapons fire, cut down troops, and eat vehicles for lunch. The Nidzilla list is rightly feared, especially if you can sneak in some speedy troops to pin down the food.

    Numbers - sure a marine squad can kill off 8 gaunts in shooting, but then the other 24 pile into them. This can be an expensive proposition because you have to buy the models, but there is also a psychological advantage to be gained from filling your deployment zone with shining carapaces.

    And speed - put the marines on the defensive. Choose the points of engagement. Reinforce breakthroughs; escape losing propositions.

    Let's go through your force:

    Hive Tyrant - it's inefficient for the HT to be a generalist. Make it good at either shooting or cc. If you have time, make it either a shooter with VC and another gun (twin-linked devourers or the barbed strangler), or a cc monster with a second pair of STs, or perhaps the twin-linked devourers again. Give it enhanced carapace or warp field for that all-annoying better save, especially since you don't have tyrant guard to help keep it alive. I'd go with the guns, since as a walking tyrant it will be turn 3 or 4 before it even gets near close combat.

    Carnifex - ditto. A great load for the shooting fex is VC and BS. This is your primary anti-tank, and devastates closely-packed marine squads. As discussed in many other threads, the cc fex has its uses, but can be tricky to get into combat.

    Warriors - nice start. Give them enhanced carapace so they won't be cut down by rapid-fire bolters. Consider giving them leaping to get them into combat slightly faster.

    Genestealers - you have highly morphed them so they are individually expensive - about two marines each, I'd estimate. Thus, you really need to keep them alive until they can get into close combat, which will be tough against a canny marine player who knows to loathe and fear your stealers. They will be your foe's primary target for shooting, so hide them behind the monstrous creatures and work cover like your life depends on it. The feeder tendrils are really only useful if you closely support your stealers with gaunts, since stealer WS is so good that they tend to hit on 3+ anyway.

    Gaunts - the hormies will not really benefit from enhanced carapace since a 5+ save won't protect them from bolter fire, their deadliest enemy. Consider adrenal gland +1I instead - initiative 5 really annoys marine players, and will keep them alive slightly longer. Hormies are not so much used to kill marines (since marine toughness and armour save protect them considerably from hormies) as lock them down until you can get genestealers into the fight to finish them off.

    EC is also wasted on the spinegaunts - churn the points back into more spinegaunts.

    The lictor is an iffy proposition against marines. Alone, it probably not be able to kill off or even tie down a squad by itself for more than a turn - it will die quickly under counter-assault by marines unless you get lucky. Use it to assassinate vehicles with soft rear armour or tie up devastator squads or dreadnoughts for a turn.

    Ripper swarms - use these to escort your monstrous creatures to block the marines assaulting (some might try), but don't expect them to do very much by themselves.

    John, I'd expect a canny SM player to shoot your list to pieces before you got it anywhere near assault. I say this because it looks a lot like my first lists, and that's what happened to them. :-)

    The bolters and heavy bolters will destroy your troops unless you can use cover. The lascannons on the tank (predator?) will kill one monstrous creature every 2-3 turns unless you can put it down with the carnifex's venom cannon. And if you do destroy the tank, your opponent should still be able to keep his troops away from your MCs to stop them using their cc weapons. His HQ will scarcely shrug at the lictor.

    What to do? Think about minimising the upgrades on your troops in order have the points to afford more of them. Depending on your preferred style (which you will probably only work out after a few games), maximise stealers, MCs (the Zilla list) or fast attack (troops - hormies and stealers, FA raveners or gargoyles; consider a winged hive tyrant and winged warriors if you don't mind doing some converting).

    I hope this response will prove some value to you, but of course it's worth every penny you paid for it. :-)

    Regards,
    andrewthotep

  5. #4
    Junior Member Gozer the Carpathian's Avatar
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    /Agreed

    My fellow bugs have given you great advice here. Let me give you a quicky version:

    1. Specialize and focus. Remember every point counts in a bug army. 5 guys with 1 point mods can equal another bug in a 'nid army. Don't generalize.

    2. Learn your mods. Feeder Tendrels? What are you attacking that has a WS of 6? Seriously if you're not planning on fighting anything with that high of WS why have feeder tendrels on Stealers? Lending the ability to broods within 2" is nice but it's not worth the points added to the stealers.

    3. Focus your Army. Are you a big guy army or a mass of chittin army? At 1000 points you're not going to be too sure yet but as you get up there you're going to need to pick one or the other and stick with it.

    Those are some quick and dirty little tips for you. Remember 2 cheap bugs of the same type are better than 1 expensive bug of the same type most of the time.

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    i insist the most serious problem about marines is not armor anymore. yes it is still quite a pain in a bugs axx but now, my only problem is what-the-hell-is-shooting-me-oh-it-is-an assault cannon! too many shots, highs str, low ap, and RENDING. i miss those old days when rending was only our property. but that weapon chews us. two dreads with that weapon and power fists. or .. a vehicle i cant remember the name of.

    it is good to think and speak of some tactics against general problems of versus-marine games, but also do not forget they do the same. i advice you visit the marines forums to see what they think about us. what they really fear of.

    altough i love my every little and big bug truly, i must say that if two players are in same level, a marine has about %30 more chance of winning.

    as we think of ways to make our genestealers reach their lines, they think of protecting their lines. their job is easier. as we want our carni shoot their tanks, they want their lascannons took down carni's. (those targets are about the same difficulty, but their weapon is cheaper for the work it does. because of ap) as we have special forces they have their company abilities. think of some dead company; wbb and power weapons. we are poor shoters except carnifex, all he has to do is to put some marines on roofs or walls or sth like that to give them even more protection. it is easier for him to make use of terrain. and believe it or not, they are cheaper in total.

    a nid player must be very carefull, controlled, wise, intelligent, strong, lucky, charismatic and more experienced than a space marine player.

    the upside is... when you win, you tend to be more happier than a space player marine who has won.

    am i whining

  7. #6
    Member Noctus's Avatar
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    according to my experience:

    zoan warp blast works amazingly well against marines: small blast AP3 eats them.
    Take three of them!

    Also, put a Barbed strangler on your carnifex: it's a pining weapon, and F8 CAN make heavy damg against armor. your carni is slow and shooty, doesnt need an extra attack given by ST.

    Hive tyrant: i Use a shooty/CC and it uses to kill about twice its value in points.
    Winged hive tyrant, with 2 TW devorers, enhenced senses, warp field, bioplasma and F+1.

    It is useless to field a winged hive tyrant with 2 ST (just my point of view though). It just gives him 2 extra attacks, he doesnt need really that, he is already able to overkill most units with 3 attacks and bioplasma.

    but oh my god, 2 TW devorers: makes 12 shots, reroll to hit (Bs4!), reroll to wound (F5!).
    This should do about 8 wounds at 18ps to any unit. Beleive me, rolling 8 saves just before being charged by a hive tyrant is a frightening situation.
    Last edited by Noctus; April 19th, 2006 at 09:38.

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    yes, but my opponent learnt that fact and is fielding some heavy armor on the like dreadnaughts and vehicles. and few marines. he puts dreadnaughts in drop pods -he can do that- and so he gets 3 deepstriking units with a total of 4 assault cannons. which means 16 rending attacks. hurty. add to lascannon shots from vehicle and tac squads. tyrant is first target for those. all he has to do is to is to deepstrike drop pods. and they safely land. only risk is in terminators.

    and that damn weapon also slays our small, swarming units. deadly. i hate them truly.

  9. #8
    Senior Member andrewthotep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Windwalker
    i insist the most serious problem about marines is not armor anymore. yes it is still quite a pain in a bugs axx but now, my only problem is what-the-hell-is-shooting-me-oh-it-is-an assault cannon! too many shots, highs str, low ap, and RENDING. i miss those old days when rending was only our property. but that weapon chews us. two dreads with that weapon and power fists. or .. a vehicle i cant remember the name of.
    Indeed the assault cannon hurtss usss preciousss. Two or three of them can even chew up a monstrous creature per firing phase, which is of course exactly why the SM players love'em. Watch for them on landspeeders - fast, deep striking and deadly. Luckily, only lightly armoured.

    Fortunately the AC only has a range of 24". If you have venom cannons and barbed stranglers on your big guys you now have an even better excuse to keep them at 36".

  10. #9
    Member tyranidfrenzy's Avatar
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    Whoa, I didn't really think about the zoanthropes but just noticed the warp blast!

    A S5 blast from 36" with ap3 then from 24" they have an AP2. Sweet :yes:

    Gotta get two more thropes and also stick this on my tyrant. I messed up before, I hadn't put ST on my tyrant, it has the bonesword and lash whip and also the VC. Does anyone know where I can buy a decent sized pair of wings for it?

    I went to buy some gaunts/hormagaunts the other day and instead I got the battleforce again :shifty: So now I've got a CC fex (with Crushing Claw and ST and tusked ) and a shooty fex with a barbed strangler and VC and spine banks. Also modded then to increase their WS (on CC fex) and BS (on shooty fex) as well as reinforced chitin and extended carapace. My CC fex is quite good at killin tanks. Played my friend in a little experimental game, charged his tank and Rolled a D6 of 6 for my crushing claws + 1 for ST +2 for charged with tusks = 9 S10 attacks. The problem is just gettin him their but I stuck in in between my spinegaunts and hormagaunts and moved up the table with em.

    Also, I'm gonna wing my existing CC warriors (ST and RC) - but worried about having no extended carapace though, and use my new ones as shooters. One with a barbed strangler and others with either a deathspitter or devourer. Mostly like the deathspitter but not fully convinced yet. Then i'll up their BS from 2 to 3 (poo stats!!) and also their strength for any of the S-1 weapons.

    Noctus, when you put down f8 or f+1, what does it mean? I've been lookin about in codex wrackin my brain and still don't no! Lol

    Also now got a total of 24 genestealers. Yes, I agree I messed up with the feeder tendrils and dropped em. Just got extended carapace on the little guys. Is it better for 2 broods of 12 or 3 broods of 8?

    Thanks for all your replies, I can tell a lot of you are veterans at this and your opinions are helpin me immensly.

    Thanx! John

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyranidfrenzy
    Whoa, I didn't really think about the zoanthropes but just noticed the warp blast!

    A S5 blast from 36" with ap3 then from 24" they have an AP2. Sweet :yes:
    Have another look. The range is 18' and 24'.

    I wouldn't totally dismiss feeder tendrils. It confers prefered enemy to any brood with a model within 2'. Good for helping gaunts & rippers.

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