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  1. #1
    Junior Member estro_pajo's Avatar
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    Serious DE questions !!!

    Hi people!
    I was a dedicated CSM player till I took a glance of 3rd ed DE codex. I was enchanted. Possesed by the dream of a mighty Kabal army that causes fear and pain on the battlefield.
    I looked into myself and found that inside I'm a beautiful, anorexic haemonculi.
    So I went to one shop in Krakow and bought 2 used warriors for a try. Next day I came back and said:"More dark eldar - I liked it!". Now I'm building my forces for Medusa - I want to play the campaign as a dark eldar!
    Despite the fact that now is the exams time on my uni I spend almost every day on painting warp beasts, wychys, mandrakes, warriors... And here I have some questions:

    1) Mandrakes save. Do they have 10 I even when charging or only when being charged?
    When they fight in CC their save can be nullified by power weapons as it no longer counts as a 'cover save'? or not?(still counts as sth like invulnerable)

    2) Grotesques. Got eg five grots and a haemonculi in a unit. Got shot by a sqd of SM with bolters. What do I do now? Do I count their special 'feel no pain' rule as a mixed armour rule and since grots are in the majority the bolters can forget about wounding my haemonculi? In mixed armour description for orks stands that if better save is in majority the weaker orks use the tougher as shields. Out of fluff haemonculi easily can do the same.

    3) Do I have to inform my opponent what unit is in which raider? Their open toped you know, so it would be reasonable for him to see the passangers.

    4)How do the wych weapons affect my opponent? They have no 2 CCW and half their WS. Always when in combat with wychys or only in certain circumstances?

    5)How do you use warp beasts? Their quite expensive as for their poor abilities... Love them anyway, but can't find any use apart from crossfire or support charge...

    6) How do the reaver jetbikes use their weapons? It is said that the jetbike raider has a splinter pistol and there's a bike mounted weapon /blaster/shredder/rifle). Can he shoot with both weapons and then assault or just one?

    Thanks in advance. Hope that my questions are not too dull.
    Awaiting answers my deariest DE buddies


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  3. #2
    Archite of Caerbannog KwiKwag's Avatar
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    Welcome to the Dark Kin! I am glad you left chaos and will be playing on our side for Medusa V!

    As for your questions, each one could be a separate topic. I will be brief but I may not know the entire answer for some of them. Here are my thoughts.

    1) I think they are supposed to have an initiative 10 when they charge (since they say it in the codex as being in cover when they charge). However, there is a rule on page 39 in the rule book that says the defender in cover will always strike first regardless of special powers so I do not think you can charge a squad of Mandrakes into the enemy that is defending in cover. Otherwise, outside of cover, the Mandrakes should always strike first. I could be wrong though.

    2) The Grotesgues pose a special problem. Some believe in the mixed armor rule (as do I) and the Haemoculus cannot be harmed as well. When I have played with grots usually just telling your opponent that only Strength 6 weapons can harm them is enough for them to choose a different target. Unless you have 6 (strength 6) shots coming at you you shouldnt have a problem with it. Perhaps some else can shed some light on this one.

    3) The answer is no, you dont have to tell them. Yes, the skimmer is open topped but could you really tell what is in a vehical that is travelling 200kph? Personally, I dont tell them but I will always give them my army list and he can try and guess what is in it. On occasion I have told them if the Raider is full or not because sometimes I start my raiders empty with the squad on the board but other than that you dont have to tell them.

    4) Yes, Wych weapons deny the extra CCW your enemy may have so they are always fighting with their base attacks. As for halving their WS if they are Strength 5 or less is debatable. I use the rule this way, when the enemy strikes back you halve their WS. I do not halve their WS when I strike. There is alot of confusion on this rule and I am not saying it is the exact way it is played but it is how I use it and the GW store I play at agrees (which really doesnt mean much to you).

    5) Warpbeasts Rock! Expensive? 75 points for 5 beasts and an agoniser is cheap! That's 30 strength 4 attacks AND 3 agoniser attacks on the charge with 12" assault! Warpbeasts have continuously been the star of the battle as long as you select your targets well - not hard to do. I use mine as comming out of the warp, 6" move, fleet of foot for 1d6 with a 12" assault is deadly and what I like about them is that they are faster than the enemy thinks and will surprise them everytime. On their own I will send them into Banshees and heavy weapon squads with great success. However, I usually use them to tie up a squad long enough to let the wyches jump in or they will jump in and assist the wyches. I like them and for a spare 75 points they are a good squad to use - just keep them in cover though.

    6) Love the reavers. In the shooting phase, the reavers can only fire their mounted weapons - just remember that if you are within 12" then you get to rapid fire. In close combat they get only one attack and another if they charge. If you get the +1A drug then they get 3 on the charge but that is it. There is alot to say about the tactica in using reavers but there are 2 main styles: Tank hunting and close combat.

    Tank hunting reaver squad is anywhere from 3 to 5 with 2 blasters. Idea is to turbo boost so you get the inv. save towards a transport or tank and try to "pop" it with your 2 blasters. Usually no succubus is taken, it is a disposable unit that you "throw" at your enemies armor. this unit also can be used as a support unit with the 2 blaster shots before the charge but they will not last long against power armor.

    The Close Combat squad can be done several different ways but the one list that works for me is a fully loaded archon or dracon on a reaver, a succubus with powerweapon and t-helm and 5 or 6 additional reavers with 2 blasters. So thats a squad of 7 to 8 reavers total. With the right drugs you can have a minimum of 6 to as many as 10 powerweapon attacks with the right drug effects. The lord can break off if needed and I sometimes give the succubus xenospasm to fire before the charge. Again, with the right target selection they can be used effectively even as a primary assault unit.

    Hope this helps a little, I am sure others will chime in on their style of play as well. Good luck and Happy Hunting!

  4. #3
    Son of LO Tenozuma's Avatar
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    Yeah, KwiKwag basically got in first try. Except on number 4 I think. As I remember, wyches do half the enemies weapon skill even when they are attacking, I believe this was said in an FAQ.

    Just thought I'd post this to add extra weight to what KwiKwag said (apart from number 4).

    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Bogan
    Teno, you are so godlike I almost creamed my pants!
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  5. #4
    LO Zealot Ostsol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KwiKwag
    1) I think they are supposed to have an initiative 10 when they charge (since they say it in the codex as being in cover when they charge). However, there is a rule on page 39 in the rule book that says the defender in cover will always strike first regardless of special powers so I do not think you can charge a squad of Mandrakes into the enemy that is defending in cover. Otherwise, outside of cover, the Mandrakes should always strike first. I could be wrong though.
    The codex says that Mandrakes count as being in cover even in assaults, but makes no mention of charging. Thus, the intention clearly was not for Mandrakes to be able to benefit from cover in combat in any fashion not normally afforded to normal units. Also, the rulebook does not say that defenders in cover always strike first, unless this is the 3rd Edition rulebook we are talking about.

    To summarize, Mandrakes always count as being in cover. When being charged, this provides the benefit of the Initiative boost; but when charging or when in further rounds of combat, there is no benefit -- just like any other unit in cover.
    Why do the survivors remain anonymous -- as if cursed -- while the dead are revered? Why do we cling to what we lose while we ignore what we still hold?
    Name none of the fallen, for they stood in our place, and stand there still in each moment of our lives.

    --Duiker, "Deadhouse Gates"

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  6. #5
    Son of LO Tenozuma's Avatar
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    I know this isn't true, but units, when charging out of cover, get I 1, which would mean that mandrakes strike first when being charged but last when charging. This, is false though, and would make no sense if it was true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Bogan
    Teno, you are so godlike I almost creamed my pants!
    Tenozuma - The Burninator... I came, I saw, I posted.
    Dark Eldar player.

    Feel free to PM if you want any advice or help with anything.
    Assume everything I say has a "what I think" disclaimer.

    Hang out with all the other Aussie and NZ members at The ANZAC Clan.
    Need advice, want to talk warhammer or just want a laugh? Come on LO Chat. http://www.librarium-chat.com/


  7. #6
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    About the Wyches WS...what's the verdict? Do they count their enemies at half WS when attacking and while being attacked?
    "One death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic" -Stalin


  8. #7
    LO Zealot Ostsol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenozuma
    I know this isn't true, but units, when charging out of cover, get I 1, which would mean that mandrakes strike first when being charged but last when charging. This, is false though, and would make no sense if it was true.
    Staying in that hypothetical line of thought, the Mandrakes would actually not get I1 when charging since they are always in cover and therefore cannot ever be charging out of cover.
    Why do the survivors remain anonymous -- as if cursed -- while the dead are revered? Why do we cling to what we lose while we ignore what we still hold?
    Name none of the fallen, for they stood in our place, and stand there still in each moment of our lives.

    --Duiker, "Deadhouse Gates"

    -Ostsol

  9. #8
    Son of LO Tenozuma's Avatar
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    Ah, Clever, good point.

    @ Archon Ryan: Opinions are split on this but I'm with the group that says they halve the enemies skill even when they are attacking. I think it says something along these lines in an FAQ. If you go just by the codex then it only works when their getting attacked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Bogan
    Teno, you are so godlike I almost creamed my pants!
    Tenozuma - The Burninator... I came, I saw, I posted.
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    Feel free to PM if you want any advice or help with anything.
    Assume everything I say has a "what I think" disclaimer.

    Hang out with all the other Aussie and NZ members at The ANZAC Clan.
    Need advice, want to talk warhammer or just want a laugh? Come on LO Chat. http://www.librarium-chat.com/


  10. #9
    Born from Tears of Angels WraithGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by estro_pajo
    1) Mandrakes save. Do they have 10 I even when charging or only when being charged?
    When they fight in CC their save can be nullified by power weapons as it no longer counts as a 'cover save'? or not?(still counts as sth like invulnerable)
    power weapons ignore armor save not cover, cover save is influenced only by units with plasma or frag grenades. Invulnerable save is CC save that only wyches have, cover save means vs ranged atacks and the unit with it always strikes 1st in CC when attacked. I cant say anything about I of drakes since I am not 100% sure myself, its not stated clearly enough to make any conclusions.

    Quote Originally Posted by estro_pajo
    2) Grotesques. Got eg five grots and a haemonculi in a unit. Got shot by a sqd of SM with bolters. What do I do now? Do I count their special 'feel no pain' rule as a mixed armour rule and since grots are in the majority the bolters can forget about wounding my haemonculi? In mixed armour description for orks stands that if better save is in majority the weaker orks use the tougher as shields. Out of fluff haemonculi easily can do the same.
    Grots are shield used to protect from shooting, nice in CC with 2 wounds and atacks, need hamonculus otherwise they are pointless. And yes, they are good but not popular for some reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by estro_pajo
    3) Do I have to inform my opponent what unit is in which raider? Their open toped you know, so it would be reasonable for him to see the passangers.
    When you play, the units on raider must be on the raider so the oponent can see, you dont have to inform them of anything. If there is no room put some units on raider and the rest next to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by estro_pajo
    4)How do the wych weapons affect my opponent? They have no 2 CCW and half their WS. Always when in combat with wychys or only in certain circumstances?
    Enemies in CC use the minimal amount of CC atacks, basicly, the units become unarmed and uses the least number of atacks possible. When atacking wyches, the oponents halve their WS. They are 2 points each, not 1. Thats a common misconception

    Quote Originally Posted by estro_pajo
    5)How do you use warp beasts? Their quite expensive as for their poor abilities... Love them anyway, but can't find any use apart from crossfire or support charge...
    Never say that, They are great and cheap. You use em vs weak armored troops, guard or gaunts. Very fast and multi hitting, are very useful to tie up squads due to high number of atacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by estro_pajo
    6) How do the reaver jetbikes use their weapons? It is said that the jetbike raider has a splinter pistol and there's a bike mounted weapon /blaster/shredder/rifle). Can he shoot with both weapons and then assault or just one?
    They use their weapons the same way everyone else does, u simply roll for drugs to boost their skills. Bikes have pistol and rifle and can be fired at the same time, if you pay for blaster or shredder then u use them instead of the splinter rifle. Bikes arent armed with power weapon only with CCW so I dont know where you got that
    Last edited by WraithGuardian; June 3rd, 2006 at 05:46.

  11. #10
    Archite of Caerbannog KwiKwag's Avatar
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    Thanks guys for helping me out with these clarifications :yes: I do not proclaim to be an authority with these questions but rather I think I just barfed out the forums collective beliefs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ostsol
    The codex says that Mandrakes count as being in cover even in assaults, but makes no mention of charging. Thus, the intention clearly was not for Mandrakes to be able to benefit from cover in combat in any fashion not normally afforded to normal units. Also, the rulebook does not say that defenders in cover always strike first, unless this is the 3rd Edition rulebook we are talking about.

    To summarize, Mandrakes always count as being in cover. When being charged, this provides the benefit of the Initiative boost; but when charging or when in further rounds of combat, there is no benefit -- just like any other unit in cover.
    What I was referring to in the big black book (4th edition) on page 39 about assaulting unit that are in cover does say specifically that special powers and abilities are of no use and a unit defending in cover will always strike first regardless. But we pretty much agree over all that the Mandrakes do not attack I 10.

    Ostsol, what do you think about #4? I can believe Tenozuma's point of view but right now I have my club believing it the other way - switching now would make them laugh at me since they think wyches are overpowered anyway. Personally, thanks to GW, I think it is inconclusive to know for sure - but still would like to wrong though:yes:

    Thanks again for helping and please dont be afraid to correct me if I'm wrong - I needed some help on that one.

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