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Okay, so like i said, i'm having a lot of problems with not getting wiped out every time i play. I mean, i speed up, get to the other side, lay some fire down, and then assualt, but everything of mine dies in assualt (even the wyches!!). So it seems like i'm doing everything right, and everything is going wrong. I'll put warriors in raiders and drop them near an enemy. But after i kill about maybe 3 of their space marines in a squad of 10, they come and shoot me with bolters, kill half of my army, and then assualt to kill the rest. It just seems like the low strength isn't enough to keep all my units alive. I mean, considering that wyches are supposed to me amazing in cc, they still have a low strength, i remember attacking some grey nights once and only getting about 3 wounds from a unit of 15 wyches, and all the nights made their armor save! What will happen a lot of times will be that i get close enough to shoot my assualt weapons (which i feel DE excel at) and then i don't know whether to assualt to units that i'm shooting at, or let them assualt me (which i don't exactly want either). So my main question is how do i make up for the low strength of a DE kabal? And How should i make it to where i can fire my assualt weapons, but not get charged at the next turn?
My only suggestion is using pile in moves, have a couple units assualting a few units out of the squad at a time. I kill one by one, 2-3 wyches per space marines will give you about 4-6 kills from 15 wyches on a charge. Incubi are diffirent, one incubi nails about 2 marines before dying at the least. NEVER send 10 wyches vs 10 marines unless you simply want to keep em away from battle. If you pile in one them (3 on 1 at a time) then you have a chance.
Warriors die easily, keep em at distance and provide cover fire, dont expect them to outgun anything cause they wont. Raiders are toilet paper armored, disimbark whenever you can so if it goes down it doesnt take 3-6 warriors with it.
Take advantage of retinue's CC abilities. A unit with drachon and 5 incubi nails 10 marines every turn for me (Even though I use 7 not 5) In CC they are unstopable so dont be afraid of paying a lot for them because they are worth it.
I am not sure why you have mobility problem, I use my raider to skim max distance, unload and let the units charge. Its a 20" charge and is very useful if you desperately need to get into CC. There are ofcourse cases when you play on a 10 foot table, but thats what a WWP is for.
Dont be scared, rush up close and attack with all you have, pile in one unit, 4 on 1, 3 on 1, 2 on 1 whatever, still kills more enemies then fighting with even odds.
Last edited by WraithGuardian; June 25th, 2006 at 21:06.
You'd better be using sybarites and succubi.
Succubi with Angonisers MAKE units of wyches.
Same with sybarites and warriors.
Carving through power armour is easy with weapons that hit on 3's, wound on 4's, and allow no saves... Especially when they strike first 90% of the time.
minimalism is the key.
I like to think of the big picture with this army and then try to compliment them accordingly.
Wyches do make great close combat troops but they lack shooting and strength. I dont worry about the shooting part since there are others better at it so wyches to me are primarily just an assault group. They are okay going against marines but if they are getting assaulted/charged then you are not getting all the "zing" out of the group. Wyches depend on that initial "shock" on the charge - they must do well here in order to overcome their enemy confidently. Kinda like getting over that hump, they need momentum otherwise they will not clear it and fall backwards. Never leave the wyches in the open and if you cant get them into cc from the raider then you are better off hiding them for another turn - dont get stuck in a failed charge.
So with this in mind, wyches are okay but need some extra "umph" or support. You can either ensure they assault with another wych squad, or you can accompany them with a lord or either have reaver jetbikes or warpbeasts join them in support. I like to use a lord myself and sometimes will use warp beasts. The extra attacks provided by these support groups give the wyches the proverbial "push" up that hill. As Wraithguardian said, you need to outnumber your opponent, especially units with power armor. Wyches will chug along slowly but the T4 and 3+ armor saves WILL ware you down.
Warriors and Raider squads are more effecient at shooting than CC. Yah, the agoniser toting sybarite will do well but like the wyches I wouldnt run these guys solo into CC. I use warrior squads as shooting units - either in the 2 darklance squad or as a disposable web way portal deploying unit. Those are my primary uses for warriors - dig them in and fire.
As for raider squads I am having fun using them in conjunction with the raider as a mobile fire base. Horrorfex on the raider and a terrorfex on the Sybarite will usually get the enemy squad pinned and allow me to rapid-fire them and use blasters and cannons to soften them up. If the raider squad can take a good number of marines down then I have the option to assault or just stay back and pin again (depending on the environment). So for me, Raider squads primary function is just shooting - cc is an option but I'd rather rapidfire. They would also make a good supportive unit for the wyches utilizing the hidden agoniser of the sybarite.
Remember not to run any of these units solo, they all need support. Dont fight fair, double or triple up your close combats and "shock" the enemy. Get that 1st assault phase massacre and move those units towards the next target. "Shock" on the charge and support, support, support!
Thank you all so much for the the help with everything. I'll try to remember all that next time i play someone... which is most likely going to be another typical marine army that involves pointing and shooting, which in my opinion does not add up to a fun game at all.
sorry for my rant. :cry:
Dont worry about it, the harder it is to win the sweeter the victory.
You're gonna feel great when you get the timing and concentration of force down to a tee, just spare a thought for all those marine, tau and guard players who point, shoot, win and go meh, I knew I'd win.
I was playing around with the idea of a pair of raider squads following my wyches, hellions, and HQ into CC. Originally they were there to give fire support from the flanks and provide a meat shield from more dangerous stuff that closes in. If you suppose I used the Horror/Terrorfex combo for both of them to attempt to lock down nearby squads while my main beef cleans up, would that work at all?Originally Posted by KwiKwag
On a side note the rest of my army relies on lots of heavy weaponry spread out and two Talos to provide CC pressure and cannon fodder. In case that helps with the main question.
I noticed we share some of the same ideas when it comes to tactics - I really like your idea of Raider Squads providing fire support and or pinning them down to be assaulted when the wyches get there. The squad I listed above is used on their own - they dont work with other units but they certainly could.
I use this squad out of the warp. Most of the time I give the raider a trophy rack to help lower the targets leadership. I will usually do the Sybarite's xeno/fex first since that squad is going to be rapid-firing on that squad anyway. If the Sybarite is successful then I will use the raider's horrorfex on a different target or just use the darklance. If the Sybarite fails then I have another shot with the Raiders fex hence the redundancy. If both fail then it looks as if the raider squad will have to assault so they dont get shot at - I also give the sybarite an agoniser.
In the last 4 games in using the Horrorfex and Xenospasm/Terrorfex combo - I have always been able to pin with one or the other (lucky I guess). This event usually draws alot or all of the opponents attention and the raider is usually the target - trying to get it to explode or eliminating the horrorfex and the chance of using the slave snares. You can usually get 1 pass over the enemy but we all know the longevity of a raider
Will it work? Yes, however, expect only 1 turn of pinning and there is always the chance of missing with both (crosses fingers).
Try it out and let me know how it works out.
I have a friend who uses DE for mainly fire battles. He lays the pinning on thick, but the forces definitely need close combat otherwise all they are doing is holding the enemy down and slowly dying from the occasional miss.
I'll tell ya that I played a CSM army first and quite an elite one at that. With my DE army I just want a nice spread out and dependable force. I understand that the WWP can be a lot of fun and all and there are some nice upgrades to throw around, but I'm kind of burnt out on that stuff.
That aside, to tell you the truth it was my original plan to make the pinning not so much a tactic as to make the pinning units a target. The idea with two Talos, a handful of long-range attackers, and an in-your-face pinning force is to give the opponent a "damned if ya do, damned if ya don't" choice when it comes to choosing whome to target.
So really what I'm saying here is that you should play a few more games and find out just how reliably you can make your opponent focus on those Horro/Terrorfexes. Once you find that out you then have a dependable way of predicting your opponent. At this point I don't think I have to inform you of how deadly that can be for the enemy.
I suggest starting with adding/removing the Slave Snares to make sure you can't just drop 'em for the extra points. From there you can have a lot of fun "losing" some games in order to do a little research on what really psychs out your opponents.
Kwikwag is giving you pure gold on tactics. Fex's can be very effective. Well, they can unless you are playing some of the "my whole army is fearless" chaos armies. They are worth the points. One question... how big are your wych squads? I use 10 on a raider.
Also I suggest giving your wyches blasters. For the cost of a single dark lance, you can get two mini dark lances (aka blaster) that your wyches can use and then assault. You should kill at least one marine and often will kill a two if your wych squad has blasters. Don't forget to fire off the other 8 splinter pistols as well. You will get some lucky rolls and may kill another marine or two. If you are using raiders out of a portal with your wyches, you will find you don't need to fleet very often and the pistols will make a difference.
Also, try to fly your raiders such that they are between the intended close combat unit and the rest of his force. Then fire off your fex and disintegrator to hurt and possibly pin a second unit. Your raider will most likely get shot down but it will now become terrain and will block los to give your wyches cover after they win the combat.
My usual tactic is have 2 wych squads together. Fly them out of the WWP and try to position the raiders as mentioned above. Then I will pick out another unit that I know will be shooting. I will fire off both wych squads weapons and if I get decent results, will use both raiders on secondary targets. If not, I may fire one raider into the intended CC target.
And as the other's said, you need wolf pack tactics. Always send in two units and out number your opponent. Wyches are great but they are three times better when they out number their oppnents. And don't forget to use your drugs.