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I keep hearing about how tau are now supposedly a lot more cheese enhanced.
So I am wondering just what is classed as a cheesy unit within Tau, I am not interested in other lists/armies (what I mean is I dont want the thread to be hijacked into another army cheese debate, stick to Tau).
I for instance always take 3 Hammerheads (railheads) though I am using a Skyray in some games, I take 3 in 2000/1500 and 2 in 1000pts but I have never been called cheesy in a game (ever) and I have used 2 railheads in a 1000pt tournies and never had a bad army composition mark.
I have been called cheesy for taking a drone squad (though not been called it in a tourny) and using it in a circular formation around my Shas'O/El to protect him (cannot be shot or assualted), I have also been accused of cheating until I explain how it is totaly legal.
I have also heard Tau players being called cheesy for taking 3 maxed out stealth squads or 3 teams of 3 XV8's, is 9 Broadsides as cheesy as 3 HH and if not why (9 railgun shots twin linked a turn mmmm chedder methinks).
I do not get why taking an entirely legal force organization choice (i/e 3 HH) is classed as cheesy, after all GW give you the bloody option, so I want to know your opinions on what is the ultimate cheese and why and if you agree that taking entirely legal units is not cheese.
Where is the line drawn between a powerful list and a cheesey flavoured one and what makes Tau so cheesy.
I've never flat out been called cheesey, but I also have only lost 1 or 2 battles in my 40k career with Tau... I have heard multiple complaints that my crisis teams are way too powerful and hard to kill. Reading tactica and battle reports for those opposing armies, I think the people I'm playing just aren't that experienced
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i think as long as your not using cheap tactics that make your army invincible, its not cheesey. only thing i can think of as cheesey would be 9 broadsides, just cuase it would be unfair to your opponent to have that much anti tank superiority. other than that, everything else is fair game.
Cheap tactics, like several other things, is a matter of perspective for the most part. Someone who bumbles into an obvious trap will call it cheese just like a brat that falls into a good trap will call it cheese.Originally Posted by alexpape7There is no line regardless of what is said, what determines balanced, underpowered, fair, powergamey, and cheesy is a matter of perspective from the given person. Hence why soem cry cheese when they see nine broadsides but not when they see three rail heads and others cry cheese for the exact opposite.Originally Posted by rikimaru
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Yeah all very good points but no one answered the questions really, what is classed as Tau cheese, I think the leader (at least on this forum) is the 3 Hammerhead config especially with railguns and really I do not understand why, yes they have a STR10 AP1 weapon but Marines for instance can take 3 Landraiders (more in certain lists) with 2 STR9 BS4 twinlinked weapons and a heavy bolter, thats 6 STR9 shots with a bloody reroll if missed at 3+ to hit and -1 STR on a railgun and heavybolter shots on top with AV14 all round and a transport capability to take a unit of Terminators, but you dont hear cheese with that, but put 3 HH on a table and apparantly mice run from all corners of the room to feast on the abundance of cheese.Originally Posted by darkreever
The 2nd and to me the one I hear most complaints about is plasma and Missile pod weilding XV8 teams, I lose count of how many times I have heard players whinging about the good weapons and accursed 6" assault move of the XV8.
3rd is Stealths, a lot of opponents seem to think these are some sort of untouchable uber unit and will cry cheese if more than 1 ful strength unit is used, try a mech list with 2 units of FW and 3 stealth teams, 2 XV8 HQ and 3 HH railheads and you will be deafened by the cries of cheese.
4 Markerlights, I have noticed in my gaming group a growing resentment at just how powerful the new ML rules are especially the pinning and cover save reductions (amazing in medusa type games)
So what do you people hear the cry of cheese used most for in regards to Tau units and I am particularly interested in what is classed as cheesy in tournys.
Haha.. I tried what you said on my friend early in a game of 1000pt against his Alpha Legion (42 marines, no vehicles, all infiltrate).. my 9 broadsides (used my Crisis as proxies) got decimated on the 2nd turn to a hail of bolter spam + monster HQ. It was a funny game nontheless.. we all laughed at the resultOriginally Posted by alexpape7
p.s. Oh.. I killed his monster HQ with 1 shot.. haha (monster HQ as in.. really powerful.. not monstrous creature)
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"cheesy" isn't an unbeatable list, it's a list that has a percieved imbalance in the organization (i.e. 2 min troop squads and 3 heavys). There is no such thing as an unbeatable list, it's merely a matter of different vulnerabilities and different tactics required for victory. Opponents will call any list that has imbalance cheesy, even if you're say Iron Warriors, and that's the whole theme behind your army. The reality is, most of the lists that sacrifice troops slots are incredibly weak against a well-balanced army. People like calling the Tau cheesy b/c it makes it easier to accept defeat from what is actually one of the least tooled out races (hold on, let me count the two special rules Tau have).
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In comparison with the other 4th edition Codexes, Tau Empires is average.
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There is no such thing as cheese, only whiners who either lack the experience to win or who take fluff way too seriously and intentionally handicap themselves then cry when they can't win.
Just out of curiousity, whats next? Maybe you can make an issue about the fact that GW didn't define the action of 'rolling' a D6 to actually mean dropping it in such a manner as to produce a random result; thus making it perfectly acceptable to just put them down with the face up of your choice?
Actually there is such thing as cheese, but it's gotten WAY too over-used.
"Cheesy", in my books is exploiting the rules in a way that they weren't meant to be done.
ie. Fish of Fury. That was obviously not designed like that, and because of the new Rapid Fire rules, makes it an extremely devastating tactic, and a large number of times you'll be safe from getting into combat.
3 Hammerheads is called cheesy because it's so rediculously hard to get rid of them, and because they are good at everything. The best anti-tank weapons in the game, and an excellent anti-horde weapon.
But yeah. Cheese is a point of view. Eldar players think that 3 Wraithlords are fine, and Starcannons are no problem at all.