Welcome to Librarium Online!
Was brousing warseer and found a thread that kinda has all the Eldar players wound up and trying to kill the messenger. Thought I'd share so we could see what we think.
And the original on 40k forums
The actual post is copied below. In case anyone feels unclean going to other boards. I salute you loyal souls...They are pretty much boning all the old craftworlds. I can tell you that for a dead on fact. All eldar armies will now be required to take one overpriced unit of Dire Avengers. Thats right, you heard me, they are a 1+ troop unit for all eldar once the new codex hits. Thank you for that 100+ point kick in the nuts of deadweight (did I mention that Dire Avengers still can't use gernades?) GW. Guardians are going to be 0-2 and all defender squads will be required (yes required) to have a grav weapons platform, so no defenders in wave serpents anymore.
There are also no craft worlds, as such, but rather alterations on where things in the force org are based on leader choices and squad size. For example, Wraith Guard cannot be taken as troops unless you take ten of them (thanks ****s, I love walking overpriced 12" guns on foot with no fleet the entire game), but they at least clarify the wraith cannon rules in the new book so you won't have to deal with emo marine players claming they can roll bionics or invuls against an insta snuff roll anymore. Most of the aspect warriors are troop choices and you can take a heavily nerfed Seer Council as an HQ choice, no matter who you are, so pretty much all Eldar lists will look the same once the new codex hits the shelfs. Beil Tan with a Seer Council and an Auratoch ftw!!!! I stopped flipping through the book at that point, I was so disgusted, but thats pretty much the gist of it all.
So where did Eldar get buffed (other than the expected avatar buff/price hike) ? Wraith Lords. Yes, thats right, Wraith Lords, the largest source of anti Eldar Rage and marine angst on the entire planet, are the one unit they chose to boost. They are basically the same as before, but can sport an ordinace weapon. Yay. Just what every army needs, three wound toughness 8 walking vibor/D-Cannons.
Many things irritated me about the codex, but I have to say being forced to field Dire Avengers was the worst thing. The only way it could be worse would be requiring you to field Shining Spears. I mean, the only other army with a 1+ troop choice are god damn Tau and they only have two troop choices at all. Not to mention Fire Warriors have range and can take gernades. I can't believe I am saying this, but I think the guy who wrote this codex actually messed it up worse than Gav Thorpe did the last one.
ahh. i see you came a hold of my fourms rumors. ya i hope some things they said will not be true.
Does that mean he/she has seen this (or has claimed to) first hand?I stopped flipping through the book at that point
I see no reason to believe a word of anything the OP is quoting. The person in question has obviously heard a few rumours and misinterpretted them completely in order to create one long unnessecary whinge. Don't worry folks, nothing to see here.
Having read more of the thread, I will add this: It doesn't sound possible that he has read the codex. Very likely he pulled his "facts" from a playtest codex. Now GW puts out many different versions of playtest codicies, and there's no way to know which bits of each will make it into the final codex.
Whinging about a Codex before you've read it is just silly. When Games Day UK rolls around I might trust some rumours from there, but until then its quite premature to speculate. I bring up this example alot, but remember in 3rd edition when the Tau came out? Everyone was convinced that Railguns would ignore terrain and that Fire Caste Warriors would rapid fire at 15 inches, making the army over powered. There were cries of cheese before it was even possible to make a Tau army. And then when they came out, they had an initial wow factor and then quickly got relegated to an underpowered army until their recent boost in 4th edition.
This is why pre-Codex whinging is silly.
Last edited by JOHIRA; July 12th, 2006 at 14:06.
There is so many people yacking on about the new codex without knowing ****, and I think that this guy is one of them. He made up some stuff that was remotely plausible, and presented them as facts he had read from the new codex, just to become more popular. Pathetic really.
There is very little things that we actually know about the new dex.. I personally only regard the rumor about the starcannon being destroyed and the one about exarch powers being able to affect the whole squad at true, the rest of them are either total BS or outdated when the new dex comes.
That kind of person wh spreas rumors on the web is annoying. Sure, the waiting time is hard and it is not easy to trust the company that invented the assault cannon, the librarians, drop pods, land speeders, min/max traits, shining spears, fire prisms, DAs and monoliths to make us a fair and competitative codex, when the word on the street says that eldar are in for a grand nerfing thanks to the constant whining of the spac marine players. Deep inside, I really do enspect to be very dissapointed with the new dex because I for one dont trust GW to keep my army competitative, and to provide the kind of rules that I think would be cool, but I try not to ***** too much about it. Before the new dex comes.
Well said. However, I really do trust GW to review the Eldar with the greatest impartiality of a human being; if not for the popularity boost, then for the income they would get from budding Eldar players. However, they are under a lot of pressure from all sides to get it right. The simple fact is that their will always be complaints from both sides no matter how "balanced" an army list can get - it is only natural that certain factors in the army will get degraded or enhanced during balancing. In the end, the resulting reform is generally not earthshaking.
Of course, without the pressure, they'd have a free reign. Keep up with the discussion!
Yup. Thats what he claims.Does that mean he/she has seen this (or has claimed to) first hand?Could be. That seems to be the consensus on Warseer where they are just about ready to physically lynch the poor guy. The people on 40k Forums seem to highly value his opinion though and he has nearly 1000 posts there. Doesnt seem like he needs to build up his popularity there. But you never know. I will say that the reaction on Warseer is totaly over the top. We dont know what is in the new codex, so to spit vitriol at the guy just because he says something different from the rumours we have is a bit unfair.There is so many people yacking on about the new codex without knowing ****, and I think that this guy is one of them. He made up some stuff that was remotely plausible, and presented them as facts he had read from the new codex, just to become more popular. Pathetic really.
Glad I live at LO if that is a standard reaction on 'seer.
Anyway what do we think of these rumours? Assume their true for the sake of arguement....
1. I dont like the 1+ on the Dire Avengers, I dont like to feel forced into anything. I'm still not convinced that new Avengers will be any better than Guardians but as long as they dont stink, It should be fine. Would rather take Avengers because the Background says they are common and they are worth a choice. But if this is true its not the end of the world. Cant help but feel in ayear I might resent being forced but hey, this is still small fry.
2. 0-2 Guardians. This seems a bit unfair. In 1st/2nd edition, Aspect Warriors were the troops guardians were support. Most of us took Aspects. In 3rd edition we're told that Guardians make up the bulk of the forces (and Gav gave a lame reason). OK we say and buy lots of guardians. GW go oops, no you should be playing with aspects after all... Because this seems to stuff most peoples collections I feel there may be more to this. 2 theories
a) He also said that leaders afect your troop choices and that most aspects are troops so.. Maybee if you take a Seer Council the 0-2 is dropped and if you pick an Autarch/Avatar Aspects become troops and you get 0-2 Guardian squads.
b) Remember someone posted a piccie of the new hvy wpn platform? In it it said that they were troops/heavy. Maybe any guardian squads after the first 2 are heavy support?
If its option a) all well and good. If its option b) I can see the codex being a bit of a headache. For example. Wraithguard are elite. If you take a Serpent. They are troops if you take a full squad with no Serpent. (ok) Aspect warriors are also troops. But only if you take a Autarch. If you dont their Elite(ok, I follow). Now if you take a seer council the Guardian restriction is lifted(erm..what??) but if you dont they are 0-2 and if you want a third they become Heavy support (Mommy...)...blah, blah, blah. Confusing.
3) Support weapons on a Wraithlord. Might be nice. They used to have D-Cannons and seeing how unpopular support platform are, I'd say this is plausable. I kinda like this option. Would want to be good to tear me away from Falcons...
Its worth pointing out that although this conrtadicts some rumours we already have. BUT this is the second thread from 40K Forums that claims to have seen the Codex (the other is a translation from Russian). They do not seem to contradict each other and suggest a very minor tweaking with no real meat to the pychic side of things and no big changes. I also get the impression from 40K Forums that Warseer was WAY out with its predictions for the Tau Codex. Might we be dismissing this a little too quickly?
Last edited by Gallowglacht; July 12th, 2006 at 15:56.
Well being forced to take Dire Avengers would really ruin a lot of army setups. My army is entirely infiltrating or fast moving. If I was required to take DAs, I would have to buy them a Serpent, which would be an extra waste. I don't think DAs are all that horrible, but I still would prefer not to take them. It just seems like it limits unique army setups to force you to have them.
The Wraithguard thing sorta makes sense I suppose. I don't think they should be considered troops because the Eldar are loathe to use them, only in the most dire circumstances.
More details from 40k Forums. A different poster. Now 3 sources on 40K Forums claim to have seen it..
EDIT; oops these 3 post were originally on 40k Online not 40k forums, anyway...post2ok, so I now have had a handfull of friends (redshirts all) have all seen the trial Dex from a black shirt. Here is what was peiced together from many of them, Keep in mind I know alot of these things have been mentioned but I'm just calling them how I see them.
First, There is NO trait system for the eldar, but instead is alot of requirements in the individual units that determain its place in the entire list.
1: DireAvengers are a 1+ requirement of the list unless you use nothing but jetbikes in the troops slots.
2: Striking Scorpoins, Wraithguard, and selected other Aspect warriors (Those two are the only ones my friends could recall.) are elites choices by defalt. BUT, they become troop choices if you feild them in 10 man squads, and if you do not include an exarch in the Aspect squads. Otherwise they remain elites choices.
3: For every Wraithguard unit taken as a Troops choice, a Wraithlord may be taken as an elite choice. But may still be taken as Heavy support choices. (Gut feeling tells me this won't make it to the final Dex.)
And here are the things assides from organazational slots that I've heard about.
1: Wraithlords have gotten a slight point increase, and now has alot more customization options, includeing useing 2 Heavy weapons (Although you might have to drop the Dreadnaught CC weapon to do it, but not 100% on that.) The Wraith Sword alows it to re-roll wounds.
2: Pathfinders are gone entirely, but as a bonus, basic Rangers now get +2 to their cover saves, and get AP 1 on a 5 or 6 on the to hit roll. Minimum squad size went up to 5, and can go up to 10, Points supposedly stayed the same. (Not definate on that.) They are still troop choices.
3: Warwalkers and Warpspiders have both been moved to Fast Attack Choices.
4: Phonix lords are in the dex, and they have equipment options, but still count as special characters.
5: Striking Scorpions are Strength 3, but their Exarchs "Crushing Blow" power now gives the entire squad +1 Strength.
6: Alatoc gets a Farseer Special Character ( I assume from the upcomming campaign.) That gives the force a Stratagy Rateing of 4 if taken. (Don't know what else he does.)
I still need to pick my friend's brain for a bit to see some of my other questions can be awnsered. Enjoy guys.post31: All Eldar Vehicles remain at BS 3, but CTM now buffs them to BS 4, no more shoot and move Sad
2: Fire Prism's basic attack is STR 9, AP2, Heavy 3, with something special when you combine two of them, (If the sorce from my other rumors can be beleaved, combine the two to make a STR 10, AP1, Ordanance large template attack, But this has'nt been confirmed.)
3:Farseers are a 0-1 choice and may have a retinue of body guards. After purchacing 5 warlocks, you have the option of adding an additional Farseer to make a seer council, and if you have 7 warlocks, you may get an additional farseer. But I beleave it ends there. May not take Jetbike option if turned into a council, and Farseer's are still concidered independent Characters for purposes of CC, but may never leave the squad.
4: Warlocks come with Which blade + Shiriken pistol standard, and may be upgraded for other options, but have gotten a moderate point increase for the bundle.
5: Confirmed Star cannon is only Heavy 2 Sad
6: Friends did'nt see Spirit Stones on the Vehicle upgrades list so they might have been Axed, but they did'nt get the chance to see it in great detail.
Actualy, I don't think all these rumors are buffs. I think they are so far doing a good job of balancing the list. To me it seems like they are toneing down the Craftworld themed armys, while makeing alot of the units that had issues with them more for there money. But if all of these trends end up being true, Eldar will still be a very low model, low toughness army.. Iyadden does seem to still be nasty in Higher point games, but just the thought of picking up full 10 man wraith guard squads for each Extra Wraithlord + haveing a manditory Dire Avenger squad in addition to not being able to take Elite Aspects with Exarchs for contentions for Wraithlords. And if they wanted to be able to run up Wraithguard in Serpents, then Thats once again, another Elites choice that is competeing with the wraithlord.
It seems to me that the new dex will all be about checks and balances. You'll be able to have a beiltan like army, but you'll still only be able to feild the same amount of Exarchs on the Feild. (Which goes a bit more with the fluff concidering the Exarchs where supposed to be the masters of the shrine for the entire craftworld.). This will be crippleing to Scorpions that now need their Exarch to be STR 4. I can see Banshee's getting a bit more play becuase of this. And sure you could POSSIBLY feild 6 wraithlords if these rumors pan out to be true, but that means you have to shell out 1110 points alone on Wraithguard squads, assumeing the points on the WG stay the same.
And despite all the things that we have been hearing good about everything we are going to get, the only times I hear "Point Decrease" is when it comes to the Jetbikes, and the Singing Spear. Assides from that, all of the models seem to be staying the same points. The models just get buffs or nerfs to bring them more in line with the already existing points of the models. And with things still being Expensive point wise, its going to start getting realy pricy point wise to move around models like they are suggesting here.
Hearing the rumors one at a time it seems like its nothing but buffs, But once put back into the grand perspective of the entire thing it seems to me like its something that has been lacking through the complete eldar list since the beginning. And that is "Balance."The only thing I heard about guardians was their abilaty to feild two weapon platforms is not true. And that the New weapon platform is going to require its crew to always stay 2 inches away from the gun at all times (Supposedly the new Gun Platform has the gunner physicaly connecting to the thing, and always comes with a large base similar to the IG gun teams.) And that the gun itself can actualy be hurt and destroyed. Supposedly it is treated as simply a T6 Model with a +3 save so you can no longer use it to screen guardians from assault. Assides from that I do not know anything. I don't even know if their shiriken cats are confirmed at 18 inches. My friends tryed to focus on the stuff thats hotly debated and anticipated. Not nessesarily what is pretty much the same, as they only had a limited time to look over the list. Beleave me the big question I wanted to know was weather 2 of the same Weapons on Warwalkers and WL's will be counted as Twin linked, or will they actualy be two seperate weapons. Sadly, I don't know the awnser to that yet, but I'm going to give them a bunch of questions to awnser for me if they get a chance to look over the list again.
Oh, and I forgot,
The dire avengers little shield bit that people have been talking about (And that has been seen in the concept work as well as in WD) is nothing more then a shild that gives a +5 cover save to the squad. So its just a conceil without haveing it count as any kind of psycic power by the looks of it.
Get yer teeth into them lads...
Sounds quite good other than all the force org shuffling. Not very radical or imaginative but balanced and quite good afterall...
Last edited by Gallowglacht; July 12th, 2006 at 17:52.
I'm not even sure if this is a new codex any more than its an entirely new army with the word "Eldar" printed on the front. This is leaving a bad taste in my mouth, as a LOT of stratagies will be changed, and possably not for the better.
I've seen a man roll 26 ones in a single handfull of dice, and Tycho die 49 consecutive times in 60 games. I've had a wolf lord never die (106 games) and a war walker kill a Force Commander AFTER its gotten both weapons destroyed. I've lived a full gaming life.