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Played a game at the weekend, beating my Slannesh toting friend. One large squad of 9 winged warriors, equiped with claws and talons. They despatched a possed squad, then the keeper of secrets, only to be hit by his DP. i wondered if anyone had any thoughts on the best number for such a squad verses number of squads.
I am looking to field an army based on warriors, winged and ranged with a flying tyrant.
Any help would be just spiffing
Most squads don't come any bigger than a squad of like 10 models. i'll emphasize the word MOST as i'm sure there are some out there. Best thing you can really do is change your army according to what army you're playing (unless of course it's a tourny).
Also depends on how you intend to equip your squads. I recommend giving every warrior in there rending claws and something else (deathspitters or talons, etc.)
Then just take a look as something like the toughest squad you'll be facing, let's say terminators.
Don't feel like tearing out my codex right now but let's just use 3 attacks as a base number on a squad of.. 7 warriors. Then we'll put them up against 5 terminators
3 X 7 = 21 attacks for your squad
16% chance of rending = 3.57 wounds caused by rending.
5+ invuln for termies = 1.17 wounds saved = 2.4 wounds remaining.
remaining hits after rending = 10.29 hits
50% chance to wound = 5.15 wounds
2+ save for termies (84% chance) = 4.32 saves = 0.83 wounds
SO.. in theory 7 warrios would kill about 3 termies on a charge without scything talons. with scything talons you'd get an extra 7 attacks which would mean roughly 1 more rending. Throw in 2 more warriors with rending claws and talons and you'd get maybe another 2 rending (in theory since it's a 1 in 6 chance) which would likely take down the squad. So against something like terminators 9 would be the magic number. So 9 winged warriors with rending and talons would be ideal. IF you don't lose any of them.
Obviously that number won't change alot, versus marines their saves will be lower but they have about the same toughness and there will be more of them so any extra wounds will go back into the squad.
Guard may take a few less, but I recommend keeping your numbers high due to their tanks and firepower. Ditto against eldar and tau.
The statline will also change if you have warriors on foot with deathspitters and so on. But that should give you a rough idea.
Thanks for that, so how may winged broods would you go for. I was thinking of 2. With a flying Tyrant, broodlord + ret, some leaping little'uns and a lictor or two for re-rolls. Fast rending death:w00t:Originally Posted by jackofasses
sounds good to me, just make sure you're either really fast and he's really stupid, or stay near stuff that'll block LoS
The minumum squad size of 3 can pretty much kill anything although it will take them a round or two of combat. Really, it is on personal preferance though. 3 squads of 3 will be able to tie up more squads or kill multiple units at a time, but they will be easier to wipe out the squad and they won't be able to kill larger or really tough squads on the charge. The main thing that you want to watch out for is that if they are all together in a squad, they are all vunerable. Splitting the squads makes sure that overkill fire, like several ordenance blasts or several squads firing at them, wont kill more than the smallest amount of guys.
Personally for fast attack with winged warriors though I would suggest that you use raveners instead since on average they move just as fast, get more attacks for a chance of rending and depending on how many upgrades you gave your warriors, are probably even cheaper.
Jackofasses, your math is off.
4x7=28 attacks for squad
3.111 rending wounds after inv sv.
9.333333 normal hits
w/ toxin sacs 3+ to wound
about 1 more wound
makes a total of 4 wounds.
This varies though one what biomorphs you have given them. Toxin sacs and adrenal glands can affect it a good deal.
Originally Posted by The Paint Monkey
My math was fine, I did it based on 3 attacks a round, not 4.
I also mentioned, rather quick that a 4th attack per round would equal another wound or two, as well as adding more warriors would increase it by another one or two. Just to clarify.
this squad can get nastier if you add bio plasma on the warriors aswell giving another +1S attack.. and by the rules if you have rending on the creature the bio plasma DOES benifit from the rending ability in the same way a SM vet sargent gets another powerfist attack by taking his fist AND another CC weapon. which i think is complete cheese but rules are rules.
And this "bioplasma gets the benefit of rending" is where in the codex? If it doesn't carry over the monstrous creature armor piercing benefit, it surely wouldn't carry over the benefits of rending.Originally Posted by dragon252
I agree, I'm quite sure bio-plasma doesn't get the benefit of rending. This is because it has always been a form of special attack. If you note it's cost compared with scything talons which do benefit from rending bio-plasma is cheaper. Basically bio-plasma provides other benefits but overall isn't as good as a pair of scything talons.Originally Posted by jackofasses
As far as using winged Tyranid warriors is concerned, well we must remember they are jump troops and jump troops work best in an assault. Tyranid warriors are also one of the nastiest assault units in the game combine this with high movement and they are deadly. No other army has the potential to field jump troops this powerful in such numbers.
My point is you should consider spliting them up if possible. As others have mentioned they are still effective but much harder for the enemy to shoot them all at once. Remember they are synapse creatures so a small unit of them has no higher a vunerability to morale tests. If you want nine, three broods of three can act together as nine or split up as or if the situation calls for it.
Raveners can have rending claws just like winged Tyranid warriors, they are also fast and a cost less points. However Raveners aren't as strong and the Warriors strength is useful against tanks. In addition Raveners are much easier to kill than Tyranid warriors because they aren't synapse creatures and of course they can fail break tests. Raveners may be an alternative but they are a cheap alternative. Don't get me wrong I like Raveners. In any case we can field both if we choose.
im going to argue that bio plasma does indeed get the benifit of rending, as i stated i dont think it makes sence that giving a marine a pistol as a second combat weapon dosent infaact give the hero just an extra attack to make with the pistol, but instead lets them make an additional powerfist/power weapon attack, im sure as hell going to use the same rule to give rending to my bio plasma.
and true it DOES say that monstrous creatures dont give bonuses to bioplasma. there is no mention of rending.
so my argument is that if its good enough for marines to get bonuses for a pistol in sure going to use the same rule to get bonuses for my bio plasma.