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Like many of you I got excited for a while about the dire avengers buffs and was thinking of getting some. However now I'm having second thoughts and wanted to see what you thought to maybe save us all from temptations of preordering or overordering. (or to see what I'm missing).
So first lets assume all the good stuff happens.
-pts stay the same
-can shoot 3x shots every other turn.
exarc can give the squad
-conceal as our guardians get
-something to make DA's only get hit on a 5+ in cc
That sounds pretty good but consider that in most tournaments MEQs make up well over 50% of the entries and even friendly table games tend to follow that theme. Plus if they become 1+ we won't even have the option of only bringing them on if we expect a lot of orks or something.
So against marines even with the exarc (especially if he goes johnny woo style with the shuri cats) the DA's will still lose pathetically in cc. It's just they'll lose a little slower now, and might be able to win on the charge against a notably smaller force.
So compare them in shooting(using average results).
10 DA's vs 8 bolter smurfs (for simplicity extra weapons will tend to help depending on what they are).
First the DA's will lose a pair as they approach (they have to get within 24 inches) then they will lay into the SM's with a flury of 3 shots each
The SM's will step forward and rapid fire to kill 2.
Now the DA's best bet at this point is to try fleeting of footing out of rapid fire range and just accept the single fire casualties before striking back.
Still it winds up being a losing proposition for the avengers.
Now losing in a straight up comparison with Smurfs isn't so odd. Lots of our units would. The difference is that our good units have all sorts of other considerations that we can use to bring things into our favor (starcannon upgrades, move and shoot heavy weapons, crystal targeting matricies etc etc).
All I'm seeing with dire avengers is a springboard for assault squads, attack bikes, etc and a target for models we'd otherwise be hiding from.
Also all DA can do is bounce throwing stars off heavy armor at close range. Whereas that starvyper could take out anything except a land raider if it gets a shot at some rear/side armor, and guardians could pop some rhinos or use their range and manuverability to selectivly fire at single units while using cover to avoid fire from others. And so on and so forth for most of our units.
So do you think DA will really be that usefull? If so how?
*edit; after thinking about it a bit more the DA could win a bolter shootout by only getting within 18" of 2-4 marines effectivly forcing the marines to fire single shots or bunch up and leave themselves vulnerable to blasts. But that's usually going to be a moot point as SM's will usually have some upgrades and some bikes/rhinos/assault marines all of which will really ruin the avengers day.
Last edited by sunnyside; July 18th, 2006 at 18:18.
The new Dire Avengers will rock! The problem is that you compare how they would do against a Space Marine squad. Remember that Eldar units are specialized, if you want to kill a Space Marine squad you take a Space Marine squad killer-unit! Like Banshees, Dragons or Ap2 weapons. Dire Avengers will be great foot-sloggers against light infantry and holding objectives etc.
Warhammer Fantasy: Warriors of Chaos, High Elves
Warhammer 40k: Eldar, Space Marines, Orks
I agree, Dire Avengers will probably be great for their point values. I can even see them leading to some problems... Leaving 100 points for HQ, you could still field 75 Dire Avengers with the left over points. Imagine 75 guys shooting AP 5 weapons two or three times a turn at 18". Then they can charge into CC!
I think you also forgot Defend, or does that change somehow. I remember reading that Exarch powers apply to the whole squad supposedly, so that means the whole other squad would be -1 attack right?
Even without that, I haven't seen a single person upset with making DA a little stronger. The problem is that we might HAVE to take them. This really ruins a lot of current army lists. If you want a fast army, you will have to pay 100 points or more for a Serpent for the Avengers which puts a 10 man squad close or higher than 250 points. If you don't mount them up, then you have a fast army, and a squad footslogging. Just ruins the whole feel of the army. In my current list, they don't fit. When I make another, they would probably go in it for sure, because they fill a great role as mid-ranged shooters which can hold their own in CC for a bit.
One bit of good stuff that was missed - the Executioner the Exarch has in some pics I've seen of the models. Combine that with the entire squad only taking 5+ hits in close combat. Changes the close combat equations - think of it.
Mounting it will be expensive, but highly fun. We can fish-of-fury too. Only, with us, its shoot two shoots from behind the skimmer. Then fire three shots and charge the next turn. And the transport has a big twin-linked gun as well. Two squads working in tandem, while expensive, is a compact and versitile assault element small enough to hide behind terrain. Go to the Tau boards, read up on fish-o'fury for inspiration. Then think of all that can be done with the better aim, greater quantity of shots, transport-born heavy weapons, and (hopefully) considerable exarch-fueled clean up ability.
Yes, I think I'll be quite content with 1+ dires. And if we are getting doctrines, in either list- or Autarch- based form, I think the best is yet to come...
Last edited by Kingwithoutacrown; July 19th, 2006 at 00:19.
Yeah, the buffs rumoured are mroe than enough for me to gladly field Dire Avengers in my army and show off their gaudy helmets.
Kai Shin Craftworld (Biel Tan / Ulthwe) 5000 pts
Emperor's Children 2000 pts
I think if you want a squad of Dire Avengers to win a battle of attrition with a squad of Space Marines you're playing the wrong army. That's not the way Eldar play.
The way I see it, DA's are going to play very similarly to how I used to play Guardians (but better). I rarely took support platforms, what I did instead was used my Guardians to soften up a unit that one of my heavy-hitters was going to attack, but wouldn't be able to wipe out on its own. Its my old strategy of having lots of little things that can dish out a lot of damage, and they can quickly re-maneuver to hit the same target if need be and make it dead. The idea is to keep the opponent off balance by never knowing what I was going to hit next. With the increased range and the Hail of Shurikens, I think that will fill the role nicely.
That makes me feel better. As long as it doesn't get too expensive that'll let the squad at least hang with loyal marines in cc. That extra kill every turn could often make the difference between drawn/won combat and hoping that this isn't the turn your leadership roll comes up bad. And that means they have the option on come in fire2 then fire 3 and charge, and make it work. Giving them a viable tactic.Originally Posted by Kingwithoutacrown
I still don't really like them, but I think that's more because I don't feel like they fit in well with my existing ulthwe force since I'm not the cc council of doom type ulthwe but the run all over the board and shoot kind. I just have a hard time seeing them making up for the two starcannon squads that they'd have to replace.
I suppose what it comes down to is I decided to play eldar because I wanted to play fast maneuverable no-two-games-the-same type eldar. If I'd wanted to play sisters of battle (kinda what the DA's and their associated tactics are you must admit), I would have played sisters of battle.
I guess sisters can't fish and tau can't assault so that gives us some unique tactical options, but still.....
Anyway the feedback in the thread has made me feel better especially the executioner part
Those two armies were actually my mental base-lines for comparison. There seems to be a bit of a "medium infantry' trend - instead of basic troops being the fifteen point SMurf and everyone elses 6 point paper plate, they make mid point cost troops that are still decently capable - in this case, 12 points for a squad 4+ that can shoot and hand-to-hand reasonable well is a new wrinkle, as composed to 10 points for 4+ and a waste-**** gun, or 11 points for equivalent gun, less stats, and power armour. Plus the exarch looks to be a beast.
If all the rumours hold up, I'l bee happy to field a squad
The Morbidos Fleet will reclaim the Eldar empire. This time there shall be no mercy. Let them choke in their own blood!
The one dark spot is the conversion - I bought a whole load of the Ulthwe head sprues a while back. I was hoping that Guardians would become bad-ass, because I have so many of them, and with my black and gray urban camo scheme plus regal blue plumes and the rune picked out in copper, my guardians look bad ass. I am hoping that the new dire are a sprue of Dire bits in a box with the standard guardian bodies - it'll be easier to order that sprue to convert guardians back. Frankly, if I could get away with just replacing the old shurikat with the new, telescoping site shurikats, and add the targeting vane, I'd be happy. Personally, I think the ulthwe plume goes better the classical greek plume the new exarch seems to have than the dires usual mohawk.
Other food for thought - the dire avenger exarch with executior I saw also seemed to have a vambrace arm shurikat/pistol type of thing. If he gets that an aditional pistol ccw, with the excutioner, that would be cool.