Nightbringer/C'Tan "Etiquette" Question - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    Charitably Tables People MVBrandt's Avatar
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    Nightbringer/C'Tan "Etiquette" Question

    Hello all.

    I'm somewhat new to 40k, and have mostly just played with buddies at the Battle Bunker in Glen Burnie, MD. I'll be playing with some folks I don't know all that well as I get more into the hobby again, and have not used my C'Tan with "non-friend" folks yet.

    I'm pretty comfy w/the tactics for him (though suggestions are always welcome ... and it's the NB btw, not the Deceiver), but I'm not sure about the etiquette of using him.

    I know in older version of 40k (i.e. 3rd ed.) you had to request permission to use special characters, but I've received mixed answers regarding using them in 4th ed., esp. when the rules don't specifically state that permission is required.

    Sooo ... I guess that is my question - should I be concerned about having him as a staple in my army vs. certain opposing army types, or should I always request and if perm'ed make adjustments spot-on to my army list?


    Also, just little side questions I've come up with that are probably simple to answer
    1) Tomb Spyders - do they operate *just* like res orbs in that they can recover models harmed by power weapons / no-save-allowed / instant-kill hits, or do they just override the 6" same-type-nearby rule?

    2) Monolith ... and I apologize for how newb this question will sound, but on deepstrike can it deepstrike into an enemy unit or terrain and explode? Also, while I know you can fire from behind it due to it being a skimmer, can enemies fire past it for the same reason or does it act as a LOS blocker to enemy fire?

    Thanks in advance for the answers to these and any other questions I come up with. I've enjoyed playing w/ Necrons, and fooling around with more odd-ball and joint tactics such as combining gaze-o-flame+FO's+pariahs+nightmare shroud for some interesting army-breaking morale tactics, but I still have a zillion cloudy areas / questions about the rules in general and how they interact with Necrons in specific.


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  3. #2
    Slave to the flesh The_Outsider's Avatar
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    Unless the codex says you have to ask your opponents permission (which iirc it doesn't) you can use it if you like.

    1) They just override the 6" rule.

    2) Its fine if it DS's onto an enemy unit. I'm not too sure about landing into terrain (I think it forces you to take a dangerous terrain test but I do not know).

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    Quote Originally Posted by MVBrandt
    Hello all.

    I'm somewhat new to 40k, and have mostly just played with buddies at the Battle Bunker in Glen Burnie, MD. I'll be playing with some folks I don't know all that well as I get more into the hobby again, and have not used my C'Tan with "non-friend" folks yet.

    I'm pretty comfy w/the tactics for him (though suggestions are always welcome ... and it's the NB btw, not the Deceiver), but I'm not sure about the etiquette of using him.

    I know in older version of 40k (i.e. 3rd ed.) you had to request permission to use special characters, but I've received mixed answers regarding using them in 4th ed., esp. when the rules don't specifically state that permission is required.

    Sooo ... I guess that is my question - should I be concerned about having him as a staple in my army vs. certain opposing army types, or should I always request and if perm'ed make adjustments spot-on to my army list?
    No, you do not have to ask opponents permission anymore, though you do have to follow any point specific army that they would require (which is none in this case for necrons). So yes you can ALWAYS use the Nightbringer.

    Quote Originally Posted by MVBrandt
    Also, just little side questions I've come up with that are probably simple to answer
    1) Tomb Spyders - do they operate *just* like res orbs in that they can recover models harmed by power weapons / no-save-allowed / instant-kill hits, or do they just override the 6" same-type-nearby rule?
    The tomb spyder does not act like a res orb (so no wbb from poweweapons or instakill hits. Now remember though if the shooting attack ignores your army you will still get a wbb roll, as long as it is not x2 toughness. Yes they just override the 6inch same-type-nearby rule.

    Quote Originally Posted by MVBrandt
    2) Monolith ... and I apologize for how newb this question will sound, but on deepstrike can it deepstrike into an enemy unit or terrain and explode? Also, while I know you can fire from behind it due to it being a skimmer, can enemies fire past it for the same reason or does it act as a LOS blocker to enemy fire?
    No, the monolith cannot blow up since it is one of its special rule because it is soo big (don't know excatly where it is, read under the monolith entry). No skimmers will never (except when immobile) block LOS, but it will require the enemy to take a check to see if they shoot at whatever is behind the monolith but not the monolith itself.

  5. #4
    Charitably Tables People MVBrandt's Avatar
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    Thank you for the quick answers, and I'll add a "new" question

    Thanks for the quick replies, and I'll add a "new" question ....

    I'm having trouble understanding melee results for Necrons.

    Scenario:
    Death Company assaults Necrons, and kills 5 of 10 with regular non-power cc weapons. The remaining 5 flee after losing the combat and are run down (I am horribly unlucky with my rolls on leadership, for the same reason I'm lucky otherwise, I roll a horrendous # of 5's and 6's heh). There is another warrior unit w/in 6" of the location the first 5 were killed in combat (with armor-save-allowing hits).

    I know the ones run down to not get their WBB roll, but I've received mixed answers regarding the ones killed by the melee weapons before the rundown.
    As I read the rules, the ones who DID NOT RUN, but were killed in normal fashion, should be able to stand back up due to other warriors 6" nearby (and join that unit by rule, since their unit is dead). I've been given the answer, though, that since the unit was destroyed and run down, none of them get the roll back - even those that technically did not run away.


    ALSO (edit) - Value of the Phylactery? I've only used it once, in a 500 point game vs. dark eldar. Bastards rushed me and I managed to gun down most everything except this lord thingy on a hoverboard that had a 2+ invuln. save. I couldn't do much but charge it w/ everything, about 20 warriors and my lord. The lord also had a res orb IIRC, and made his WBB roll and also stood up w/ 3 wounds. Wow, great. Next turn a warrior's hit got a 1 save rolled by the "Archon" I think it was called, and he was quickly scythed down thereafter for a very solid win. Before he died he did another wound or two to the lord, so I figured hey worth it, my lord lives thanks to the phylactery. Is it typically worth it, though?
    Last edited by MVBrandt; July 31st, 2006 at 17:30.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MVBrandt
    Thanks for the quick replies, and I'll add a "new" question ....

    I'm having trouble understanding melee results for Necrons.

    Scenario:
    Death Company assaults Necrons, and kills 5 of 10 with regular non-power cc weapons. The remaining 5 flee after losing the combat and are run down (I am horribly unlucky with my rolls on leadership, for the same reason I'm lucky otherwise, I roll a horrendous # of 5's and 6's heh). There is another warrior unit w/in 6" of the location the first 5 were killed in combat (with armor-save-allowing hits).

    I know the ones run down to not get their WBB roll, but I've received mixed answers regarding the ones killed by the melee weapons before the rundown.
    As I read the rules, the ones who DID NOT RUN, but were killed in normal fashion, should be able to stand back up due to other warriors 6" nearby (and join that unit by rule, since their unit is dead). I've been given the answer, though, that since the unit was destroyed and run down, none of them get the roll back - even those that technically did not run away
    Yes, your right. The ones that got overrun do not get a wbb whatsoever. BUT!!! the ones who were killed with non-powerweapons WILL get a wbb as long as there is another same unit within 6 inches, or a tomb spyder.

    Quote Originally Posted by MVBrandt

    ALSO (edit) - Value of the Phylactery? I've only used it once, in a 500 point game vs. dark eldar. Bastards rushed me and I managed to gun down most everything except this lord thingy on a hoverboard that had a 2+ invuln. save. I couldn't do much but charge it w/ everything, about 20 warriors and my lord. The lord also had a res orb IIRC, and made his WBB roll and also stood up w/ 3 wounds. Wow, great. Next turn a warrior's hit got a 1 save rolled by the "Archon" I think it was called, and he was quickly scythed down thereafter for a very solid win. Before he died he did another wound or two to the lord, so I figured hey worth it, my lord lives thanks to the phylactery. Is it typically worth it, though?
    I don't usually take it myself, though some people swear by it. The best combination would be with a monolith as it would allow you to re-roll it, thus giving you a better result. But, don't forget that if your lord had a scythe on, then the archon wouldn't have received his 2+ invulnerable, in fact nothing gets a save from a warscythe.

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    Originally Posted by ZombieKiller
    Yes, your right. The ones that got overrun do not get a wbb whatsoever. BUT!!! the ones who were killed with non-powerweapons WILL get a wbb as long as there is another same unit within 6 inches, or a tomb spyder.
    Although i normally play it this way technicaly, in a tournament environment, you are allowed to roll the wbb for the men who got chased down (if they are within 6 of another necron or a tomb spyder). This is becasue in the codex it says that you lie down any necron models that would have been removed as casualties. It then says that they can't self repair if they where killed by a close combat weapon that doesn't allow armour saves or any weapon whose strength is twice the necrons toughness without a res orb. The rules for a unit getting killed by being chased down is that they are removed as casualties, this enables them to stay on the board as "damaged necrons". The run down move is neither a CCW that ignores armour saves or a weapon that is twice thier toughness (especially seeing as in both cases it states "Weapon" and the run down move isn't a weapon) and so the Necrons can roll their wbb, this does also mean that necrons can get up from all rules like tank shock because they are not weapons, and thus don't qualify for the necron rules, neither are they twice the Necrons toughness or a save ignoring CC attack. And as such if you have a res orb your necrons can get up from everything (assuming they are in coherence with the 6" rule).

  8. #7
    Charitably Tables People MVBrandt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieKiller
    Yes, your right. The ones that got overrun do not get a wbb whatsoever. BUT!!! the ones who were killed with non-powerweapons WILL get a wbb as long as there is another same unit within 6 inches, or a tomb spyder.



    I don't usually take it myself, though some people swear by it. The best combination would be with a monolith as it would allow you to re-roll it, thus giving you a better result. But, don't forget that if your lord had a scythe on, then the archon wouldn't have received his 2+ invulnerable, in fact nothing gets a save from a warscythe.

    Unfortunately in my new-guy nature I missed the subtext that Warscythes ignore *even* invulnerable saves. My opponent I begin to think actually knew this (it was not w/ a friend, but a "random") and simply didn't let on. Needless to say, after learning it I kinda went "aw you arse!" Too bad it was long after the fight.

    With the monolith as you state ... if I roll a phylactery roll of a 4 and he stands up with 1 wound, are you saying I could then port him and re-roll the phylactery roll? How would you get a "better" result, instead of just a "new" result should he fail it entirely?

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    Gaz, yes I know that necrons overrun in close combat and in death or glory cannot get a WBB no matter what. I was saying that the warriors that were knocked down before the unit broke and ran are able to get a wbb as long as they meet the regular wbb requirements.
    Last edited by ZombieKiller; July 31st, 2006 at 20:39.

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    If your lord passes his WBB roll and teleports through a monolith he can't re-roll it because the codex states under the monolith that necrons who FAILED their WBB can re-roll it, your lord didn't fail and thus can't re-roll. Also if your lord is on his own you can't teleport him through a monolith, even if he is alive because it doen't list him under the units that can.

    Also zombie kilelr you misunderstood my last post, i said that you CAN get up from being run down. Nothing says you can't and the necron rules say you CAN.

  11. #10
    Charitably Tables People MVBrandt's Avatar
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    So if you choose to reroll a phylactery roll of 4 using the monolith teleport, and roll a 3, do you teleport with the prior 4 or "fail" your roll since you rerolled?
    That's a nasty little combo, giving you basically a free shot at extra wounds.

    Of course, I find the particle whip so nasty that I don't really enjoy wasting it unless it's actually necessary. Maybe this is b/c the AP3 has been useful against the bloated Death Company my most common opponent/buddy always uses against me (deliberately selecting multiple small squads just to up the size).

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