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Sometimes when I read these forums I see a lot of people talking abut how their beloved starcannon is going to be nerfed in the new codex. I find this strange because I have never used that many starcannons in my list anyway. In fact it is precisely because so many people have the 'uber cheesecannon' list that I elected to strongly limit the number that I field.
For example in my 2000 point list there are 2 starcannons (on vypers), 2 brightlances( one on my wraithlord, and one on my Waveserpent), 4 scatter lasers (2 on a Warwalker, 1 in a guardian squad and one on a falcon), and one shurikan cannon (on the falcon). I havn't found this mix to be overpowered against any oponent nor have I ever had a complaint of cheese. I win some and I lose some but I always have fun, so what's the deal with the starcannon whining?
People broaden your horizons, try something new! Maybe a scatter laser or two, heaven forbid you put a missile launcher in your army! You will hear less complaints and you might find that you are forced to develop better tactics to deal with the sub-optimal performance of the guns.
In the mean time I am a little scared about the new codex too. It seems that they are making my scatter lasers better, and that just won't do. I have too many of them, I'll look like I built my army just to take advantage of the new rules! This will be terrible, I may be forced to swap them all out for the newly nerfed starcannon. But I suppose these will be going pretty cheap on ebay come november.
In general I'd just like to say that people should relax a little bit about finding the ultimate killing machine army and just enjoy the game. Have some fun, build the models you like and find a way to make them work in your army. This is how I built my eldar and I have had more fun with them then I ever had with my beardy, min-maxed marine list.
So don't worry too much about the codex, buy what you like, convert it to make it cooler, paint it to be cooler still and play it for the fun of it.
"It was a magnificent display of trained and disciplined valour, and its assault failed of success because dead men can advance no further"Originally Posted by rat of vengence
-refering to the Royal Newfoundland Regiment at Beaumont-Hamel after they took 90% casualties in the assault
Now this is a really good attidute you have here, but some of us, like Sareld and I have most of our eldar issues in the fluff. Hordes of poorly skilled citizen millita dying in droves to bolter fire with argueably the worst basic weapon in the game, piloting expensive high tech machinery and crashing it into bunker walls while all firing at a dome wall and missing. That is not my idea of an ancient dying race, clinging desperately on to survival. For example, the elimination of black guardians from the army list will take away the main attraction of ulthwe players, losing their highly skilled black guardians firstly brings them back down do meat shield level, and secondly, doesn't set them apart from any other eldar army on the block, and black guardians were never game breaking.
The starcannon was used all the time, not because it in itself was so good, but because the other heavy weapons were so bad and it was infinitely superior in comparison, also, it was designed to kill space marines, which, though not our fault, are the most common army out there by a long shot, so they complain and it gets nerfed. I'd trade all my shuriken cannons for heavy bolters, most of my bright lances for lascannons etc... This is a super high tech race we are talking about, giv'em hardcore heavy weapons 'o doom, even if they are super expensive. I know the eldar's real heavy weapons are supposed to be superior, the D cannons and such, but they really aren't, look at the shadow weaver.
Losing the craftworld lists takes the heart and soul out of biel tan, no longer can they have an all aspect army without first fielding 2 squads of dire avengers which they may not want in their army as it may not fit their theme or playstyle at all. This sets them back alot of points, esspecially in small points games, and then factoring in the expensive wave serpents that dire avengers and other short ranged firepower units rely on. 2 Squads of dire avengers in wave serpents would be something like 450 points, leaving only 350 left in a 750 army, thats before the mandatory HQ, and there still isn't any other aspect warriors in there.
Alaitoc, yes, the disruption table was a bit over the top, but instead of just taking 10 steps backwards and ruining the army, they could have just toned down the table a bit to make ot more fair and fun for the opponent, rangers without disruption are not a good unit and are not rumoured to get any better in the new codex. They are a specialist unit that can take out certiain things, and without disruptions, they are not a unit that could be the real basis or backbone of a competetive army. I still might do an alaitoc type army though, just to show em' (don't count on it though).
Iyanden is working ok I guess and so is Saim hann, but without the craftworld lists, they are just themed vanilla lists and don't really have an identity of their own which is a pity, and it owuld mean we are going to see alot more of those craftworld armies that don't fit the fluff at all, like ulthwe painted and themed armies with hordes of aspect warriors, no guardians and no seers.
I wouldn't want to do an ulthwe kind of army with pathetically dumb crosseyed guardians who die at the first sight of a lasgun and I doubt any of you would either.
Tenozuma - The Burninator... I came, I saw, I posted.Originally Posted by Aussie Bogan
Dark Eldar player.
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Assume everything I say has a "what I think" disclaimer.
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I agree with you, i admit i have been known to take a lot of starcannons in my time. but back in 2nd edition i loved the full force of shuriken fire decimating the enemy, i have been very dissapointed by the seeming expendabillity of the eldar troops in the current codex. Thier survival rate is very low in games (especially guardians whom i used to cherish). I am looking forward to the new codex in the hope of a more balanced force to play with to keep things a little interesting instead of 'i must take starcannons cause everything else sucks'. At the moment i have put my eldar on the shelf and have recently purchased a noise marine army, so far i am loving them!!!! even though ive lost every game with them so far (i was against necrons for both the battles :cry: ) they bring back to me an enjoyment in the game i havent felt in the last ten of my games with the eldar, winning or losing. The codex will be a breath of fresh air to all eldar players and if i can get my hands on a copy at games day i will.
Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand things with alloys and compositions and things with... molecular structures.
I agree and disagree with the OP. Starcannons are not nessecary in an Eldar army in order to win- I had 1 or 2 in a 1500 point army and had a decent win record with it. These players that have built entire armies around the starcannon and then are whining about it being changed and messing up their plans are guilty of not making a flexible force. They made a gimmick army, and gimmick armies are always at risk of being ruined if the rules even change slightly.
However, like Tenozuna mentioned, the real problem was never that the starcannon was too good in Warhammer 40K. The problem was that the starcannon was too good in the Warhammer 40K metagame. What I mean is, if Eldar players had to play against an even mix of armies there would be many games where a starcannon is too expensive for what it does, and over-dependence on them would become a liability. But as we all know, Eldar players never play against an even mix of opponents. When I played eldar probably 80% of my battles were against MEQ and of those 70% or more were against Space Marines.
Quite simply, almost everyone plays Space Marines. The army is far too popular, far too over-represented in the hobby, and thus are far too easy to plan your army design around. Inflexible armies that are geared to just beat Space Marines can win way more often than they deserve to because the odds of playing against a non-Space Marine army that can exploit your weaknesses is too remote. The fault of this problem lies with the MEQ players, and they should just accept that if they're going to build such a predictable, common army, that they have to accept the consequence that other players will exploit that predictability.
But of course many Space Marine players don't accept that consequence, and instead whine about anything that beats them easily as being overpowered. Games Workshop should not be listening to this whining, instead they should be trying to rebalance the distribution of armies out there by finding a way to make each army equally compelling.
I have to say though, that though I in principle disagree with why GW changed the starcannon, the way they changed it doesn't bother me much. Yes, it's less powerful, but its also cheaper, which means it hasn't been nerfed per se.
It would be nicer if everyone thought outside the box, but it's just not practical sometimes. I'd love to have a squadron of war walkers with two missile launchers each, cast guide on them and watch them lay down multi-template fun, but it just doesn't look cost effective.. those things are going to die in seconds.
Fortunately, I'm making all my heavy weapons replacable. So whatever the codex throws at me, I should be okay.
If you're winging about the starcannon, you're missing the point of a new codex. The general logic GW claim they try to follow when releasing a new codex is to take the overused elements and tone them down, and to tone up the elements which noone uses. This makes the army more fun because everyone can (supposedly) collect the models they want, and it also means GW sells things like Fire Prisms.
I think that anyone who built an army like this:
deserves to have their list wrecked.
I used to field 6 (2 vyper 2 falcon 2 guardians) but now do shurifury (20 guardians. 40 shots + 40 attacks on the charge can rape a marine squad.) and double cannon vypers vs. tau, because the starcannon and shuricat vypers have sucked, becoming dreadnaught bait.
If it's not funny, I will remove it. Stand Warned.
The problem wasn't that the starcannon was so awesome at killing MEQ's, the problem was that the starcannon was better at killing hordes, too. Allow me to explain:
The starcannon has the range of the scatter laser, and is longer ranged than the shuriken cannon. The only anti-infantry weapon to out-range it was the ELM, which was overpriced so nobody used it. The starcannon had a strength on par with the other weapons in question, and a much better AP. And the clincher - it had 3 SHOTS! The shuriken cannon couldn't outdo it, and the scatter laser was too random for most people (myself included). The starcannon was a sort of uber-heavybolter for the Eldar, and that's the reason it was toned down and the other heavy weapons were toned up a little. Now in the new codex every weapon should (ideally) be a useful choice, and no one weapon will be the no-brainer that the starcannon once was.
With regards to the fluff, it seems as if the 4th Ed. Eldar will go back to the "elite fighting force" of 2nd Ed. It looks like the aspect warriors have been seriously improved so that Guardians are once again the backup for the more skilled fighters.
The problem with that strategy is that, as some people have mentioned, the rampant use of the starcannon was all about the metagame. We would have taken other units entirly in the first place if IG and Orks made up most of the top armies in grand tournaments. But they don't. Usually you don't even see one in the top ten. In every demagraphic from 12 year olds at the gameshop to tournament winners it's mostly MEQ.Originally Posted by The_Giant_Mantis
And so we take anti MEQ gear and not anti Ork/IG etc gear.
So the most likely result of that policy will make MEQ dominance at Tournaments even greater while giving us tons of stuff to mercilessly pound on any local ork player.
I mean just think about what will happen when Orks meet a force of beefed up scatterlasers and the new dire avengers!
Personally what I think would be more fun for all is if somehow all our underused units could be twisted so they can be used as anti-meq units. Some of the shining spear rumors indicate they may have done a good job with them, and I've got some high hopes for the harlequins.
Last edited by sunnyside; August 21st, 2006 at 03:58.
Personally, I WANT the other weapons to be usable. I'm tired of having no respectable choice but the Starcannon. Reducing it to Heavy 2 is perfect. Thumbs up, for once.
Someone touched on it earlier, but I want to clarify and expand it:
It's not that the Starcannon and Brightlance are so good; it's that the Shuriken Cannon, Scatter Laser, and ELM are so bad. You're not getting what you pay for out of those weapons, so why not just ignore them?
Compare Space Marine heavy weapons.
The Lascannon is the anti-tank and therefore the most expensive; equivalent to the Brightlance. No difference there in the Eldar weaponry, no player ever complains about the Brightlance.
The Missile Launcher is the compromise between anti-personnel and anti-tank, and because it doesn't do either job as well as the dedicated ones it's cheaper than the Lascannon. Here's where the ELM flunks: it's more expensive and still not as killy as the Brightlance or Starcannon.
The Starcannon's main foe is, ostenably, heavy infantry. As such, it belongs in the same price range as the Brightlance. It is a fair price for what it does.
The Scatter Laser is supposed to be an improved anti-light infantry gun. With a respectable S6 and a potential 6 shots, it COULD do the job - but the problem is that once again, you don't know how many shots will come out of the barrel. That 1) doesn't make sense fluffwise when thinking about Eldar and their ADVANCED technology and 2) doesn't make sense gamewise when thinking about what you need on the table, which is reliability.
The Shuriken Cannon is the low-end, Heavy Bolter style weapon... except that it's far more expensive than a Heavy Bolter with BS and range worse than the HB. Oh, you can move and fire, sure - but is that WORTH the points, compared to what you can get out of it? Especially when you can shell out a few more and get a gun that you can be SURE will kill SOMETHING?
In a way, that's the whole problem with the entire Codex. It isn't that Vypers are so great, it's that Shining Spears and Guardian Jetbikes suck ass. It isn't that Wraithlords and Dark Reapers are so wonderful, it's that Fire Prisms and Support Weapon Platform squads reek terribly. It isn't that Striking Scorpions and Howling Banshees are so hot, it's that Warp Spiders and Wraithguard are so mediocre and overpriced.
You have to realize that the Codex: Eldar was written in Nineteen ninety-eight. They didn't have a CLUE about 3rd Edition when they wrote it. Hell, they didn't even include witchblades in the Codex because the rules for them were in the big black book!
And they forgot their own fluff when making the Eldar Codex.
When I think about Guardians, this is the line I remember: "Guardians are militia drafted when a Craftworld's Aspect Warriors do not have sufficient numbers to accomplish victory on the battlefield themselves..." That line ALWAYS said to me that Guardians should NOT make up the mass of the army, but should instead supplement the Aspect Warriors, who ARE the army. As soon as Craftworld Eldar came out, I ALWAYS used the Biel-Tan list because that's what fit in line with how I saw Eldar since the first days I played them.
If they're making Dire Avengers good enough to BE the base warrior of the army, than KICK FSCKING ASS. Even as terrible as they are, I own a squad of 'em because they're cheap and fluffy, and have the bitz for another squad. I may buy a third, because the new models don't look bad, but that's still up in the air 'til I see the new Codex for myself.
So far, all the changes sound so good that they must have their REAL writers working on this, which let their assclown writers get away with the half-assed FAQs that so many people have been vocal about.
IMO the new heavy weapons are indeed a very good improvement.
-the bright lance: was good and still is good
-star cannon, as said the new change to 2 shots makes it a bit les "cheesy"certainly in the eyes of most other players.
-shurikan cannon, still teh same but heey it is assault now, is is now only slightly better, since platforms allow you to move and shoot anyway
-Scatter Laser, a good number of fixed shot now, and therefore i love it. the 4 shots will be good against light infantry.
-eldar missle launcherthe rules look the same, so only hoping that the points cost is towned down a bit
hope it helps
"Ask not the Eldar a question, for they will give you three answers; all of which are true and terrifying to know"