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I came across an article online that analyzed the sportsmanship and composition scores at the grand tournaments in the past. The dark eldar armies had the lowest composition scores consistently. If they are so "cheesy", then why don't they perform better in the tournament standings?
I understand that they take time to learn to play well, but I would assume folks at the GT's would be pretty good at their respective armies (although that may not be true:wacko: )
I think most people's problem with DE is that the army is pretty predictable composition-wise. I for one have never played against a DE army that wasn't completely mechanized and focused on swarming the enemy in H2H combat. Sometimes I'll get some Scourges with a webway gate, but they're only there to create a staging point for the Raider squads.
I guess people would give DE players low sportsmanship scores because it seems to them that there's only one way DE players know how to use their army.
They dont know how to use them, just google some battle reports that have been posted by the tournaments. If you follow them correctly, you will see just how idiotic the contestant's unit selection and general tactics are. One of em paid 18 points for incubi master, instead of its real price. So now ask yourself, how can a person who doesnt even know how to use the codex win a game that requires a lot of tactical thinking. Some people do things like forget to shoot twice at the units less then 12" away with rapid fire, skip turns with certain units and etc, I dont even want to mention some of the others. Its a shame that our honor is in the hands of people like that :sleep:
One more thing, DE have much more then just one type of strategy or tactic, I dont know who said that but its surely the most rediculous thing I have ever heard.
What some people call " cheese" some would call "themed" and as long as the army list is legal then this is a matter of taste. Dark Eldar are not very understood and as such tend to criticized by being an identifiable minority.
For example not everyone in a tournament can score well and there has to someone who comes first and someone who comes last, the points have to be divided up amongst all those who are present. This tends to result in what is understood being elevated in the judges eyes and what is not understood being classed as a inferior. And lets face it, Dark Eldar are difficult to understand and use, even by a lot of their frequent users.
The comment about composition scoring the lowest is probaly brought about the fact that the codex was always quirky and only certain combinations of troops seem to work, hence the same type of armies would always be represented. This could be classed as predictable and boring by judges - "not another Kabal again!"
Sportsmanship low scores could have resulted from the old tactic of the raider rush and the great reluctance to reveal what troop type is in what raider so ensuring your best combat troops not getting shot down in the first turn.
Anyway all this doesn't really matter as when you win a game using Dark Eldar you generally know that it is a result of you being the better general using the more difficult army and having the superior tactics to match. And yes DE have plenty of tactics and different compositions to use if you can master the various uses of the very specialised troops at your command.
In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.
Wicky is right on.
I was playing a coven list the other day against a Space Marine player and I heard someone say that my list was "cheesy". My list had no wyches or wych type units and it didn't sport a lord at all - just 2 squads of grotesques and the rest were warriors (half raider squads).
If it wasnt for a fellow ex-Dark Eldar player who knew better I think I would have been dubbed "cheesy". Pure ignorance - and there is nothing you can say that will convince them other wise unless your opponent or peers know Dark Eldar.
Yah, I won that game but really, running a Coven against a Space Marine list has no advantage that would be considered cheesy.
Ignorance, blind ignorance. You do well with any kind of list you will be called cheesy and playing with a broken army.
Get used to it or just lose to everyone proving them wrong.
I too frequently hear cries of cheese from other players, why doesent really understand my army. For instance, assaulting a talos out of a web way portal will *instantly* cause most opponents to first read through your codex for half an hour, come up with lame excuses as to why you shouldnt be able to assault out of portals ("come on, deploying from a portal is almost like deepstriking.. that portal just CANT count as table edge!!!111!), and finally cause him to cry cheese and remove his models from play.
Personally i think that the reason why people call cheese on us is because they dont understand that our aparent supiriority is dependant on pulling some rather difficult strategical stunts. For instance the web way striking talos I described before is powerful, and it is a great boon to be able to assault with an MC that is almost as strong as a WL without having to risk it getting shot, but what the opponents never realize is all the pains I have had to endure to ensure that the portal carrier arrived at his target at all. I also have an opponent that cries cheese every time he sees a wych, "because they kill everything in CC without trouble", even his own dedicated assault troops.. But he just fails to realize just how vulnerable wyches are BEFORE they get in CC.
Remember that the opponent only notices the tactical stunts that you try to pull when they actually work, the many failed attempts you have made to deploy that portal in the heart of his army or on top of the objective will go unnoticed...
Also, did any of you see my Kabal in the last votewar? I lost so many fluff votes, because I "only used warriors in my troop section". Other people dont really understand the lack of variety in our codex, and easily gets annoyed when we use armies with only little variety.
I think that this is the real problem with Dark Eldar, one that the Eldar have had for a while too (at least until the new 'dex comes out). That problem is lack of variety. The Eldar had only a handful of really effective units, so most armies used them and people complained because that's all they saw. The same goes for DE: the codex itself doesn't have many options, so you're forced to pick from a handful of units, making most armies seem overly similar.Originally Posted by Sareld
Hey chrach, could you give me a link for that article it sounds interesting?
Honestly I think DE are pretty screwed when it comes to other players perceptions. We're either horribly weak or incredibly overpowered, usually in that order. People don't really play against DE enough to really get a feel for what they're facing. They see you deploy and think 'wimpy DE with paper armor' and then cry cheese when you win, or they've played a few games against a good DE player and think 'oh great a DE army, what a cheesy way to win'
The only solution: we need to go out there and play more games!
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I LOVE playing people like that, makes it so fun to watch their faces when they loose and start crying that our army is cheesy.Originally Posted by sithjack
I guess anytime someone plays an army they are unfamiliar with it feels like cheese. I remember the first time I saw 3 genestealers wipe out an entire squad of my SM's because I didnt realize that I should shoot them and not the gaunts:cry:. If you have no idea what an army can do, then you have no idea how to counter it, and the dark eldar appear to be the rarest army around.
Btw Sithjack, I tried to find the composition article again and I cant find it- I stumbled across it a few weeks ago but I dont remember how.