Welcome to Librarium Online!
:w00t: Hi again everyone! :w00t:
After my weekend 5k win, I have a wee question or two:
Shield Generators - I like them, but are they worth it?
I had 9 Crisis suits on the table, of which 7 had Shield Generators. I gave every Crisis suit squad the max amount of Shield Drones as I could.
This meant I had HQ with Bodyguards + 6 Shield Drones, then the same again. Then One Elite Squad with 2, which also had 2 shield drones and a Monat Twin linked Fusion with Gen and 2 Drones.
In this battle, I lost a total or 2 shield drones, however, I nor my opponent was aware that the drones counted as part of the unit (I thought they didnt count for calculating % loss).
In all, all these extra's cost 380 pts, but I didnt lose a single crisis suit, even when I was assaulted. They seemed to work for me, but do they work for you? the 4+ invulnerable save came in useful when i kept taking Twin Linked Lascannon shots and Plasma Gun rounds to the face - let alone the krak missiles.
Saying that though, the JsJ tactic generally kept my suits out of line of sight.
All of your creative thoughts are welcome:rolleyes:
I am a bit puzzled here your saying that most of the game your XV's were out of LOS, but then go on to say you kept taking plasma, krak hits etc, then you say you were assualted and did not lose an XV8.Originally Posted by Mystweaver
You then go on to say you only lost 2 shield drones, what are you a luck magent or something.
For instance you must have won the assaults and suffered at most 2 drone casualties (remember we are talking Tau CC prowess) or 2 casualties from shooting, it seems a bit hard to believe that you took repeated hits from things like lascannons and hits from asaults and only lost 2 drone and no suits.
Sorry to sound so doubtfull but it just seems to far fetched, please tell us how you accomplished this, becasue I think you may not be playing the game correctly, assualts with IC and drones for instance are quite complicated, I am not doubting your honesty jsut your understanding of rules (the drone counting as part of the unit point for instance)
Yeah sorry, re-reading my above post it does sound a little confusing doesnt it!... To answer your questions: the only time i lost any of my drones was indeed in one assault. I took 3 las cannon shots, 1 krak missile and a 2 or 3 plasma gun shots. My 4+ invulnerable saved me on all occasions. I feel this was down to luck more than anything: but even if I did fail a save, I would have only lost the Shield Drones!
That is the point of them right? The fact they have the same saves as the unit who owns them means you can assign them hits and they go boom instead of the XV8 taking a wound?
The only time they enemy was able to shoot me was when I simply made JsJ errors and kept a chap out in the open, or should I say left him in a possition that enemy could move and see him to shoot him... 2 of the above tl lascannon shots were at my broadsides which could naturally see the entire battlefield from a 3 story building! (The Raider was promptly blown to smitherines the following turn). Of course, in their case in particular, the 4+ cover save was just as good as the 4+ invulnerable so those points were indeed wasted.
Sorry for the confusion.
Last edited by Mystweaver; August 21st, 2006 at 14:00.
It all depends, really. The tables that I play in my local GW store have ample amound of terrains (not excessive, but enough) to hide my suits behind, so there isnt really a reason for me to take shield gen and drones.. save those points for another squad of crisis or another hammerhead. There is one occasion ... on one of the table I played in an independent trader store.. it has ABSOLUTELY ZERO terrain.. it's just one big open field :ninja: with 4 rocky spikes the size of two paint pots. My suits were suffering casualty because my opponent took the advantage and open fire on all of my valuable units on the first turn :cry:
Anima Tactics - try it out!
For most situations I think Shield drones are always better. It's why I bought sprues to make 8 (O_O) .
I think the shield drone has it's place on Commanders that you didn't want to put 3 weapons on them (though less so, cuz you can now use shield drones in CC, too), cuz you fear getting shot by a vindicare (when's the last time anyone saw a vindicare?), or cuz you're using some special system that requires you to have a "lone suit, no drones" (but all of those suck, frankly).
Oooh! One good reason, cuz it'll protect against psker powers like mindwar.
Let me put it this way, I don't typically put shield generators on my commander, but I can see why you might want to. Sheild drones are better for everything else.
You cannot use drones in CC with a commander because he is still IC for CC purposes, this means only models in B2B can hit or be hit by him, the drones will fight as a unit, but the commander cannot allocate hits to drones. He cannot be allocated hits from any models engaged with the drones either, I think your getting confused with the rules for shadowsun who is an upgrade character and not an IC when she has drones, so her drones can be allocated (or roll 1st for saves).Originally Posted by Sir_Prometheus
I do not think drones or shiled gens are really that usefull either way, if you get mind warred then its only 50/50 your gonna survive, me I take stim injectors on one of my Shas'Els its just as good,with JSJ you should not really need drones or gens.
Also Prom there are a lot more weapons out there that can hit an IC with shield drones then just mind war, and the vindicare you mentioned is a lot more common with the inquisitor forces, I have two players in my club who use them occasionaly.
when a unit of XV8's and shield drones are shot at the way you remove casualties is sometimes misunderstood, you canot for instance roll one save at a time allocating the wound to a shield drone and if it passes allocate it another wound and roll the save (and so on and so on)until it fails a save, this is not how it works.
When a unit shoots at your XV8 unit, lets say with rapid fire bolters, and cause 5 wounds you have to roll all the saves at the same time and remove a whole model for each failed save, so if you failed 4 saves you would take of 4 drones, so if you got shot by a lascannon, a Krak missile and 6 wounds from bolters you would roll the 4+inv of the shield drones for the lascannons and plasma together and remove any drone that failed its save and then roll the rest of the saves, any failed saves would result in a drone being removed,if you failed all remaining 6 saves (god forbid) the last 4 drones would go and 2 XV8's would lose a wound (if you lost both drones to the AP2 weapons) .
You cannot simply allocate hit after hit to a drone until it fails its save, you could in the old codex (pre FAQ) but not now.
The rule for this is on page 24 of the BGB.
All in all I think 380pts is a totaly ridiculous amount of points to spend on the off chance you may get a game where you roll as lucky as you did, most games your going to lose drones and then your suits are testing, the way you think you can play the drones is slightly out and they suck in CC when taken with commanders, and the drone controler takes up a hard point on ordinary XV8's which means less choice for other upgrades(tey can only HW if they are team leaders
Why compromise the rest of your list to the tune of 380pts just for the odd chance to save an XV8, I and most other vet players do not take shield drones because they are expensive, offer modest protection, and make the unit vulnerable to running of the field, I take shield gens in my 2000pt list simply because I can afford them and it does not compromise my list. but I can manage without em (my 1500pt tourny list does not have em).
I think you answered your own question really, just use JSJ wisely and your ok (most weapons, psyke powers need LOS) and us the huge amount of points you would save on more valuable assets.
The more forces you have on the table the less your suits get shot anyway,its called dilution of applied firepower by provision of multiple targets and percieved multiple threats if you just field s**t loads of XV8's and litle else well they will get shot and believe me your luck wil not hold out
What happended to not responding to my posts anymore? Seriously, is there any post of mine that you can pass up making a response to, and using 3 times as much text, to boot? Is there ever a time you don't have exactly the opposite answer I do, and have to laboriously explain it? Apparently not.
The new FAQ says you allocate wounds to the drones in CC. Specifically it says the IC and drones count as a "seperate unit in CC" which is the same language they use to describe the effect of IC's being seperately targettable in main book in the first place. This means that if they're in contact with the drones, wounds can overflow onto the IC, but it also means the reverse, that hits can be allocated to the drones if they're in contact with the IC. Essentially, IC+drones is just one big IC within the bigger unit.
This is what that means, I have confirmation on that from several sources. If you disagree I don't care, I am not spending pages arguing with you about it, with you pretending that I said things I didn't or that any "experienced" player would know that I am wrong, as if you are such and I'm not. Just not interested.
I said I would not answer you in that particular thread, I post where and when I want and you have the same privalige, if you cant deal with it then tough.Originally Posted by Sir_Prometheus
No where in the FAQ does it say drones can be allocated wounds in CC, all it says is the drones and a commander form a seperate unit, this is exactly as per the rules for an ordinary IC, if he joins a unit ANY UNIT apart from BG (even his drones) he is still an IC for CC purposes.
The drones and commander form a unit that has one special ability, the unit can join another unit.
The commander is still an IC within the unit formed by it and his drones so for CC purposes the rules for IC in the BGB apply, this means only models in B2B with him can hit or be hit by him, drones cannot intercede, he is still an IC and IC rules apply and they are very specific in that they state only models in B2B may hit an IC in CC.
You are ignoring the fact that an IC is ALWAYS classed as a seperate unit in CC anyway regardless of drones, and the FAQ is simply reinforcing this, no where does it say the drones take wounds for the commander and no where does it say the normal rules for an IC in CC are changed by taking drones, your wanting it to is not the same thing.
.........said I wasn't going to do it. The IC and drones form one IC within the unit. Compare the language from the FAQ with the language from the main book, word-for-word. Or just trust me, like I said, I have several independent confirmations of this. But I am not going for page after page debating this with you, particularly with you re-stating the issues I just addressed.
Drones are not, can never be, will never be independent characters, if it were the case it would say the drones and Commander form an IC unit, it does not say that all it says is they form a SEPERATE unit.Originally Posted by Sir_Prometheus
Where does that say the drones are IC. A commander and drones can be shot at if a unit passes its targeting priority test, if what your saying is true than this could not happen because you cannot shoot at IC if they are not the closest, but you can because the drones and IC form a unit, just the same as if the IC commander joined say a Fire warrior unit, if what you say is true than the FW unit becomes an IC unit as well simply because he forms a unit when he joins them (which is exactly what happens when he takes drones, he simply forms a unit). no where does it say drones which form a unit with a commander get IC status.
All it says is that for CC purposes the IC and drones form a seperate unit, this has always been the case nothing has changed in the FAQ regarding this.
Please Mods do not lock this thread I have not responded by flaming etc, I have answered the points and I think this is an important point to clear up and hopefully it can be. so please leave it open for others to address
Last edited by Rikimaru; August 21st, 2006 at 20:50.