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This is probably old news, but I was thinking today about the possibility of using crisis suits with twin linked burst cannons instead of stealth suits.
3 crisis suits with twin linked burst cannons and blacksun filters (gotta use that hardpoint) would be 120 points. Compared to a squad of 4 stealth suits they would:
Hit more often (6.75 hits instead of 6)
have more wounds (6 to 4)
have a higher toughness (4 to 3)
While crisis with burst cannons is normally silly, I wonder if this configuration would be a decent replacement for a small squad of stealths in a small army. You'd give up infiltrate and stealth field, but since this group wouldn't be an obvious huge threat I think the extra wounds/toughness would make up for any extra fire they'd draw. Also, you could spend a couple extra points and replace the blacksun filter with flamers or target locks, or maybe just give them all drone controllers and 2 gun drones each for a squad with 12 wounds, 9 twinlinked BS 3 shots, and 6 twinlinked BS 2 shots for...171 points?
Anyway, the point of all this is to find out if anyone had actually tried it, and get some ideas of how effective people think this would be. I'll probably try it out this weekend just for fun, but I'm still learning so I won't necessarily use it as effectively as someone who knows what they're doing
They just aren't as effective as stealths. They have at least a turn, if not two turns of bounding across the field. The stealth infiltration makes all the difference, despite the cost. That and using burst cannons on crisis suits is a waste of an excellent special weapons platform.
I have a friend who uses burst cannons extensively, and it just doesn't work on crisis suits. Flamers aren't a great idea either. Their strength lies in the fact that they are long range. You're wasting a chance to field two of the best guns in the game, the plasma gun (30" effective range, counting their movement with tau stabilizer rules) and the missle pod.
A crisis burst cannon team would cut down on the weight of fire from the guns, diminishing their effectiveness. The twin linking does play a part, but having more shots is better in this case due to the fact that if you lose a crisis you've lost a third of your firepower, if you lose a stealth you've only lost a fourth (if you're running four, although I always run 6).
The thing to consider here is the fact that crisis suits aren't much more durable than the average marine. Two good squads of bolter fire could knock it out, even with gun drones.
But the main two threats to this are barrage weapons and fast troops. A barrage weapon could get several turns of shooting in on this group, most likely killing them all (since they don't have the extra scatter from the stealth field.) Jump troops would also have time to catch them and cut them to pieces before they could fire.
And what about deepstriking? Don't deepstrike suits. You're leaving them in the open with no way to escape, giving them a chance of instant death (to scatter) and allowing jump troops to grab them and slaughter them in seconds. There are very rare instances where deepstriking is even useable by crisis suits, attacking with burst cannons is not one of those instances.
Last edited by mephistophales; October 18th, 2006 at 20:31.
Ask yourself why in the world would you trust a win loss record? Playing them yourself is the only way to tell.
The true joy in the game is playing down to the last model, no matter the odds.
I haven't tried it and I'm not going to.
As I see it the suits have a very different role in the Tau army than to deal with hordes. The suits are more like elite/armour killers.
If you don't use some anti-armour suits in small battles yuo won't stand a decent change against armour (and belive me you will face it).
and to do the match
4 stealths will create 12 shots and makes 6 hits
3 crisis's will create 9 shots and make 6,75
But I really don't think that you can compare those suits and btw using four stealths is kind of stupid always use at least six else you'll have to take tests after suffering one casulty.
And crisis's teams is juts as bad as four man stealth teams. One casulty and you'll making checks the rest of the battle and you will fail it eventually
Flamers can work on Crisis if you want to make an ultra cheap suit (mine is 39 pts) and deep strike him. Burst cannon doesn't have that same one shot= tons of kills potential, and it just isn't worth it.
Stealths can get closer, they are more resistant to assault, largely immune to long distance fire, and are immune to insta kills. If assisted by marker lights, they wil also get many, many more hits than your Crisis setup could.
One more thing. A hanful of 18 dice scares people, and that's fun!
Last edited by Sir_Prometheus; October 18th, 2006 at 20:58.
First let me say that I don't think it's a good idea, and a terrible idea the way you have them laid out...
However, I do know a guy or two on a different forum that swear by the firestorm layout, which is a different question altogether, I know. And when you take this layout into consideration, the questions isn't quite as cut and dry as most people make it out to be. Especially when you think about the use of 2 SDs to accompany the Crisis for extra survivability.
I don't think twin-linking a weapon like the BC gets anything extra out of the weapon, so the use of another weapon might make it a bit more reliable and expand the usefullness of the suit. So 2 Crisis (BC/PR/MT, for instance) vs Stealth suits w/BC can be a strange but interesting comparison. As far as shear destructiveness goes, if they all shot on all the turns, they aren't that far apart, stats-wise.
However, they serve two very different purposes, and Arakiaz and mephistophales have touched on those differences quite well. There is no way for the Crisis to get as close as the Stealth on the first turn, and the Crisis need cover for survivability, while the stealth can depend on their stealth suits for a bit of help.
The real question you should be asking yourself if you are considering this change, however, is why do I need more pulse fire in an army already loaded with it, and why do I not need more plasma, melta or missile fire?
Just my two cents.
"Listen up you primitive screwheads ... see this ... this is my BOOM-stick!" - Ash
"I told you, it's not Pink! It's Light Red!" Donut on his new power-armor.
I have found that if you do something, it's better to go all the way. What you're purchasing is a unit that is more durable and better in close combat, but negating stealth, infiltrate, and massed firepower. Try Crisis with Twin Linked Flamers and a blacksun filter. I have, and if used correctly, this unit is phenomenal. A squad of three, for 34 points a piece. Deepstrike the unit (with help of Pathfinder Devilfish) behind enemy lines and/or near a key unit. I personally used this squad to scorch a havoc squad down to one man, and he was thoroughly distracted by the unit for the rest of the game. Here's a few advantages to the Flamethrower Crisis:
1. Cheap as heck. 102 points is a drop in the bucket, so you can afford to lose them, and thus, afford to put them in risky situations.
2. Destruction of Heavy Weapon Teams. Heavy weapon teams are usually bunched up in a secure, fortified location. Three flamers templates covering the whole squad, no matter what your target, will decimate the unit.
3. Vehicle Destruction. While the Tau do have some VERY impressive weapons in their arsenal, getting a squad to the vulnerable armour ten on most vehicles' rear is quite satisfying. Remember that you can shoot the flamers, then assault for (with a charge) for 9 S5 attacks versus armour ten.
4. Tying up the Enemy. Imagine yourself fighting a massive IG army. Drop this squad in the middle. Even if they die after a round of shooting, if your Crisis have target locks they can clear a large area when they enter the game (remember you can shoot when you land, but not move or assault).
Veteran players, I completely realize that this option consume a valuable anti-MEQ slot, but it is quite worth trying. Even the change in pace can be quite satisfying.
My gaming group's new motto: That army you're using is overpowered because it hurts my guys, codex is broken and needs a rewrite.
Interesting idea I must confess. And tempting with all that fire (fire is a good thing)....
I might consider trying it some day, since I'm facing a lot of horde armies and none MEQ so I might give it a try.
I like the idea of the flamer crisis team...it would be much more effective.
Originally, I was mostly looking at points per shot, but it's pretty obvious at this point that what really makes stealths effective is their infiltrating and their stealth fields, not their specific firepower or hits per point.
I wasn't really planning on giving up any other crisis suits or heavier weapons - it would take up one elite slot, just like a stealth team would. That doesn't make it a good idea obviously, but it wouldn't hurt my overall anti-meq or anti-vehicle firepower any more than having a team of stealths would.
Anyway, on a somewhat related subject...is there a verdict when it comes to adding gun drones to stealth squad? For example...If I had a 6 man stealth squad, I'd have 18 BS3 shots, 6 wounds, stealth field/infiltrate. I could, instead, have a 4 man stealth squad with 6 (or gun drones, for 12 BS3 shots, 6 BS2 TL shots, and 10 wounds, and a chance to pin. They'd also benefit even more from Markerlights than a normal stealth squad (I think...). The problem with this squad would be size/getting them behind cover. But this give a lot of flexibilty to the size of stealth squads, and seems to add a lot of benefits in terms of wounds (and to a lesser extent accuracy).
Each member of teh team can have one Battlesuit support system. Meaning each can have a drone controller with 2 drones. But what i am not sure of is, do those drones have stealth field generators?