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I don't think there's an easy way for me to say this.. I have never played against Eldar before. I have a 1000 point game vs. an Eldar player next week (I have no clue if he's mechanized, ranger, or anything), and I need some general tips/warnings on them.
( Local Tournament List)Here is my basic 1000 pt list. Since making this list, I've gotten a ravener and a 'fex with magnets, so I can arm him however would be best if I need to use him.
Here are some areas I need help in:
1. I get the idea that their vehicles are annoying. Especially for me, because I rely heavily on rending. I have the Thropes with warp blast already, but would it be wise for me to give WB to my tyrant, or squeeze in a fex with a venom cannon? Or how else could I prepare for skimmers?
2. I don't even know what eldar statlines are like. How can I put this without breaking copyright rules... would it benefit my hormies to have AG(I) or TS? Also, are eldar lacking in the multiple-shot weapons, meaning pouring on the hormies is a good idea? On the other hand, I'm going to need extra rending for his skimmers, though.
3. I hear the Eldar love their starcannons. Is there going to be too much AP2 pointed at my tyrant? I could lose his warp field if it's just going to be wasted.
4. Finally, what kinds of dirty tricks should I look out for? Besides him playing keepaway with his skimmers.
Tyranids: 2500 pts
Imperial Guard: 1000 pts
Witch Hunters: 1000 pts
1: Being Tyranids you don't have much regarding shooting. And skimmers are tough to bring down in CC. So the Carnie with the VC would be a good idea, just load up with all the shooting you can muster.
2: Eldar stats are similar to human stats, except for things they specialize in. Just about every one can easily be taken down by S 4(hint hint on T) and their armour isn't fantastic. But what they excel in is speed and sheer amounts of fire. Shuriken Catapults are assault two. A problem for your hormies. I'd give them adrenals to go first in combat.
3: That largely depends on composition. They can field a large number of starcannons. Just keep in mind that they're likely to be there so prepare.
4: Vehicles mostly with Vectored Engines. Gives him extra mobility. And watch out for a Farseer using Guide on Starcannon tooled Warwalkers. They'll eat you for lunch.
It's hard to comment because the eldar are going through a change of codex at the moment.
Eldar have the potential to be really really nasty to nids, with their mechanised cheese floaters of doom. The worse thing is the players can be really up themselves and refer to others as 'mon keigh' even though they are themselves.
Against a balanced list, it should be a fair battle. You're taking on a bunch of essentially GEQs where the elite troops are extremely good at what they do.
Banshees are brill in CC. Especially against marines.
Dark Reapers will rain death from afar.. especially against marines.
Fire dragons are fantastic against tough thing and vehicles, like carnifexes.. or marines.
There'll probably be a healthy smattering of vehicle mounted star lances, or bright cannons yada yada, which will move, shoot, move out of the way, shoot move out of the way.
I've heard that gargoyles might actually be a good option for their ability to get around the back of mentioned vehicles and use bioplasma to get the 4+ hit against them.
I tried asking a while back, what the nid player can do against a mechanised eldar list, and there were virtually no suggestions. So i hope he doesn't field a list like that.
If he's using the new codex, then he's just got more options open to him.
I really really hope you beat his ass into the ground. Let us know how it goes.
LO RulesOriginally Posted by AnonymousOriginally Posted by Cyric
It's really hard to give advice on Eldar in general, as the different craftwords (and even just generic lists) are vastly different... not quite Chaos differentials as eldar favor shooting in pretty much all lists, but very different none the less.
I've fought against Eldar many times, and other than a maxed out iron warriors lists, Eldar tend to give me the most problems (though I do have a very different list than yours). Anyway, here are some things I've learned.
- Generic eldar troops are really pretty bad. Guardian weapons are like bolters except that they are assault 2 with only 12" range. Hormagaunts, if you can judge ranges well, should never get shot by them.
- Other than Aspect Warriors (dark reapers, scorpions, fire dragons, etc) and upgraded Ulthwe guardians, the eldar ballistic skill is guard-like. They tend to make up for this will multiple shot weaponry, though... so be careful, one good round of rolling for them can be devastating.
- Eldar weapons tend to be either ap-5 or ap-2. The only real exception to this is the dark reaper launcher, which will take down warriors and non-upgraded TMC's (though they need 5's to wound TMC's). In most games, I find points spent on Extended Carapace on big bugs a waste, as I'm either taking a cover save or no save at all.
- Watch out for farseers (or worse yet, an Ulthwe seer council). Their powers can be very ugly, especially Mind War. If there's a seer council with a farseer or two with Mind War and some warlocks with Augment, kill it. Kill it fast. If you don't, your big bugs go bye bye.
- Eldar vehicles are very difficult for bugs to take down when they are upgraded properly. Chances are thropes will never get to shoot at them as they will fall to ap2 weaponry before getting into range. Get a fex with a VC/BS combo, and make sure he's in cover. His range is the same as most eldar weaponry, so he'll be good to shoot back when shot. Even if you don't destroy them, just stopping them from shooting for a turn is a great.
- Wraithlords are very allergic to genestealers. A squad of 6+ should be able to kill one on the charge.
- Dark Reapers hate lictors.
- Crystal targetting matrix makes me cry. Think Tau crisis suits but with eldar vehicles. Ugly!
- Their leadership is good but not great. Force them to take checks with modifiers and they will break. Psychic Choir is great if you can get it there even partially intact (not easy to do, though).
Hope this helps some... good luck with the game!
ok it was a long time ago I played against eldar... but here's tome tips:
first of... the statlines arn't really a secret... just look in the eldar reference sheet provided by GW. But I think it's still the one from the old codex.
1. keep your MCs 2+ sv... yes star cannons are nasty... but if you have only 3+ those dark reapers will kill you before you even deployed .
2. Eldar only have 4+ and 3+ save... with two exceptions. So as far as shooting goes the more the merier as tyranids only have one expensive ranged weapon as ap4.
3. Striking skorpions arn't really that good in CC against nids... They'll wipe out gaunts and rippers but will gennerally loose against the tougher tyranids. I've wiped them out every time with my CC build warirors.
4. Learn to hate the D-cannon.
5. transport + fire dragons = very good MC killer.
6. If you want to make homas better against eldar yes I and S uppgrade would be needed... but I think that'll make them too expensive.
7. Because their lack of blast weapons I kinda find flying/leaping rippers good vs eldar.
8. ph3ar not their skimmers too much as they only got BS3 ... just like tau
9. Warriors w/o I uppgrade will have problem against Banshees in CC.
10. If there're terrain... then stealers w carpace are your firend ^^.
11. Learn to hate Dark Reapers. Mut more importantly learn how to take them out!
12. Farseer + mind war = can kill of important creatures pretty fast.
13. Farseer + Fortune = can become a pain vs tyranid shooting.
14. Learn to hate Farseer + Guide + eldar shootly infantry. BS4 (mostly) + reroll... you gotta be kidding me.
15. Although flamers are rare in eldar army be aware that warlocks may have a power that is like a heavy flamer... so plan your movement carefully.
16. The "best" way to deal with a wraithlord is infact mass stealers and pray for rending.
Eldar units that are bad/not so good vs Tyranids (IMO!!!):
Avatar: meh CC vs nids with no impressive I and bad sv... it's going down!
Warp Spiders: dude they can teleport weeee!... but seriously range 12" weapons and no AP... wtf!?
Wraithguard: they have a nice statline... but again range 12" weapon... how often do you pull that of against nids?
Guardian Storm Squad: cheap CC troops vs nids?... need I say more?
Dire Avengers: the only reason they're bad is cause the 12" weapon... but if you mess up you can say bye bye to your gaunts!
Guardian Jetbikes: to expensive for what you get... they're only good at taking out gaunts and that's not worth their pt cost.
Shining Spears: same as jetbikes... but more expensive
Swooping Hawks: same argument as above.
Fire Prism: it would be bad ass if it had the large blast... but since it only have the smal blast it isn't worth it's pts.
War Walkers: it is a relatively good unit... but because it isn't a skimmer and doesn't have the same bad as statline as the wraithlord it kind of becomes a rather easy target to the tyranids.
ok now to the units that are good vs nids:
Farseer: mind war, guide, fortune... nuff said!
Warlocks: destructor, embolden, enhance.
Striking Scorpions: although they arn't that good vs the bigger nids, they certanly are good at killing the lesser ones namely gaunts and rippers. With warlocks with them using enhance, they're even a match against warriors and ravengers and maybe... just maybe stealers. With Scorpions Claw combo the exarch can act as a hidden power fist or Biting Blade + Crushing Blow combo the exarch hits pretty hard.
Howling Banshees: alternatively the eldar player can choose to use the banshees instead of scorpions as CC unit. The banshees are all equipped with powerweapons and the exarch can have the executioner plus their banshee mask ability. They can become a threath to mid range nids... but arn't as good as scorpions against gaunts and MCs.
Fire Dragons: Their only purpose is to stick ~7-8 of them in a transport... move them next (or within 18") of a MC and blast away!... MC no more! This tactics works almost everytime!
Rangers: they're there to anoy you... a eldar player would stick 3-4 of them in a bit of terrain and shoot your important models. Cause they always normally hit on 3+ wound on 4+ and if they get lucky they ignore your armour save. So either you ignore them through out the whole game and they'll get some lucky shoots (a eldar player WILL almost always get at least one lucky shoot in a game) and takes away some wounds or you're gonna assault them with a gaunt squad and kill them... becuase they were only 3-4 models and they've slowered your movement a bit the eldar player wouldn't feel sorry for them. So the eldar player would benifit for whatever outcome he gets from these guys.
Guardian Defender Squad: 4 words "starcannon heavy weapon plattform". The eldar player would create a ~10 man unit with a starcannon.
Wave Serpent: transport + cheap TL starcannons + skimmer... what more do you want?
Vyper Squadron: skimmer + cheap starcannons!
Falcon: almost the same as Wave Serpent... but can have the anoying holo-field uppgrade for a few pts more.
Support Weapon Battery: cheap D-cannons! The D-cannon is a stealer killer cause the stealers can't make a perfect 24" move, and a S10 AP2 blast will litterally wipe out your stealer brood... now that warriors can't be insta killed this weapon has a little less effect on them than to the stealers... but still the D-cannon can wound 4 warriors at one time at best (I don't think you could squeese 5 warrior plattforms under a smal balst marker).
Dark Reapers: oh my... it's the perfect unit for killing SM... oh wait... it's the perfect unit to kill almot anything that got a 3+ sv or worse. Ok they have trouble killing things at T7 or higher... but not many units are T7 in this game and not have 2+ sv anyway. So these guys will kill of anything in the tyranid range with ease, well except fexes and tyrants with 2+sv... and lictor in cover, but other than that will die pretty easy if they come within range of these guys... so use your terrain well!
Ok with all the units gone through I'll analyse what he might use in a 1k list.
I think he'll use (note that I haven't calculated the pts... so I don't know how much this is... I only assume this is close to 1k):
Farseer + mind war + guide
2-3 Warlocks w 1 destructor, 1-2 enhance
8-10 Scorpions w Exarch + Biting Blade in Wave Serpent + Starcannon
2x 10 Guardian Defender Squads + 2 Starcannon plattforms (1 in each squad)
5 Dark Reapers
if there's pts over I'd say he'd take a vyper with starcannon or 2 d-cannon plattforms or another farseer HQ as above.
well I hope this hellped...
Don't take 2+ fex, take a T7 one instead. It's cheaper and much more effective against eldar. Sure no save (other than cover) against reapers as mentioned, but they'll need 6's to wound, and the star cannons will now need 5's.... and and banshees (other than an upgraded exarch) can't hurt you.
And reapers are too easy to shoot down to spend all the points giving your tyrants the 2+ saves, too. Just make sure you do shoot them before long.
Ok I have never played as Nids before. I have an eldar army and have played against them a lot. Here is what i think will be a problem
Shuruken catapults are the basic weapon of eldar. These are S4 assualt 2. As you can imagine they will wreck you if the opponent can keep you out of combat. If you can do that thing nids do to assualt 12 inches you will be ok though. Dark Reapers are a main stay of most eldar armies. They shoot a lot and will kill a bunch of guys. Hit them with a lictor and you will be OK though. I would not worry that much about banshees. They ALWAYS strike first so dont try to up your initiative to survive them. They are only strength 3 and have power weapons. Hit them will some guants and you will kill them and only loose a few points worth of guys.
The big thing you need to worry about is if this guy is good he will have 1 or 2 falcons that will skim around and hit you with the d3 lascannon and d6 s5 gun. Hit him with a venom cannon and pray it does something. He will always move 6 inches so you cannot get a penetrating hit. Also you role the glance twice and he picks the lowest if he has that upgrade. You have heard the horror stories of starcannons, they are true.
The biggest advantage you have is 9 out of 10 eldar players' list are meant to kill marines. Hit him with a lot of little guys and who cares if they dont get a save.
If you build a man a fire he will be warm for a night. If you set a man on fire he will be warm the rest of his life.
Damn thanks a lot everyone for all the feedback! :yes:
After meditating on your replies overnight, I wrote up a 1000 point Eldar-whooping list. (this is a link to it) Please let me know if my list is retarded, amazing, or somewhere in-between.
And thanks for all the info on the different eldar units, too. This thread is the best "Eldar 101" I've ever seen :yes:
Tyranids: 2500 pts
Imperial Guard: 1000 pts
Witch Hunters: 1000 pts
Most of the Eldar players I have faced have 2 minimum sized guardian squads with star canon. One squad of banshees in a transport. One Falcon grav tank.
The Guardians are easy to take out with a Barbed Strangler or +init hormies. Remember that with their grav platform, the gun AND a squad member must have LOS. It is also an artillery piece and can be destroyed. Read up the artilley rules.
Banshees are a right PITA. They are a big problem for the Eldar player to deploy. He has to fly them some where usefull, disembark them and charge the next turn. Best solution is to shoot the C$%p out of them. Their transport should go to concentrated VC fire. When they disembark target them with spineguants and devourers. Position some 'stealers behind the spinegaunts to counter charge. Banshees only get their mask effect on THEIR first round of combat. Or you can give bonded exoskeleton to a 'fex and laugh at him when you tell him that str 3 can't wound toughness 7.
The Grav Tank is harder to kill than a Landraider. It usually lots of add ons that: reduce the maximum weapon strength to 8, force you to roll 2 dice for penetration and pick the lowest and is only effected by stunning half the time. Best tactic is to use a VC tyrant, Dakkafex or shoot something else.
Wraithlords are a toughness 8 (yes eight) monstrous creature. Your Tyrant will need 6s to wound and your 'stealers will need a rend result. Like our monstrous creatures they are slow. Don't be too concerned about them. 5+ stealers or 3+ raveners will take them out, ( they only have 3 wounds ).
The other problem unit you may see is a Seer's counsel. This usually has a 4+invulernable save with a reroll. Its probably best to use a Dakkafex on them. Either swamp them with guants or a 'Fex with toughness 7.
As mentioned before the fire dragons will paste your MCs. Hell what wouldn't 5 missile launchers paste. EC will help. And as mentioned before a Lictor will be lots of fun.
Remember Eldar strength is their mobility and highly specialised units. If you can slow his transports you should be able to dictate play.
Couple of things.
1-fire dragons have s6 meltas, not MLs
2-banshees ALWAYS strike first in CC, no matter what!
3-Not many eldar field many reapers, we have better units. Warwalkers, wraithlords, falcons...
Now, as far as advice goes.
1-A 2+ save isn't going to help you much. Just means any wounds are ignored 16% better vs 1/2 the guns that can reach you. The other half-starcannon, brightlance, pulse laser, Dcannon, and such simply ignore your saves no matter.
2-Eldar are soooo easy to out shoot that it really is sad. Devourer warriors along with a BS per squad will wipe whole units off the board at a time.
3-Yes, fear the seer council/mind warring farseers. But with a 18" standard range, you should gun it to death long before this. T4 dies instantly to most VCs.
4-Zoes with P scream will be awesome if you can get in range. They'll have a hard time getting in range for Warp blast for vehicles, but S 5 ap 3 will wipe everything except farseers and wraithlords and avatars.
5-Pinning. Pinning will simply own eldar. Bioacid SMCs, biovores, barbed stranglers, and strangle webs are your friends here. Pinning will keep them from shooting, and allow you to close the gap
6-Overwhelm and dazzle, then crush! Expect your genestealers/BL to die in the first turn or two to shooting. Keep them cheap, and accept thie fact. If they can make it into CC, fine, but they are better off drawing fire away from your fun stuff. a BL with medium retinue, and 2 smaller GS squads in cover should draw enough fire to allow your gaunts to hit his lines on turn 3 no problem.
7-Devourers on your fex will do the job for his skimmers. Only problem is getting in range. If you really wish to be mean, run a full 5 man choir with 2 ES, 2 BS, and 2 TL Devourers for the HTs, along with a TG each. 2 Gun fex (ES, VC, BS and perhaps spinebanks if you play agressively). 3 sets of 1 or 2 bioacid spore mine clusters will own his walkers, his falcons if you're lucky, but better yet, any platform troops. read pinning=)
8-TS death spitters for warriors aren't too bad either, as you'll be crushing his vypers 2 per hit (open topped), and can glance his falcons and waveserpents too. Plus the 24" range will help you catch them.
9-glancing hits for vehicles are nice, but you're really looking for immobolized hits on the table or destroyed, as both will cause the same effect (most eldar really on SMF to stay alive)
10-let him come to you. If you build your list right, you can out shoot him, and outrange him no problem....
11-most importantly, have fun ......................crushing him.
PS will reread your current army and offer any sugestions that pop in my head.
edit!!!! Ouch mate. You really really really really really really need some guns in that list.
Gotta say that unless you fight an all foot slogger army you're gonna be shot to pieces mate. Best of luck.
Last edited by tarzen; October 23rd, 2006 at 06:25. Reason: Checking over army list
16,000+ of Eldar (only need flyers)
7,000+ of Nids (want heirophant)
6,000+ of Space Marines (need rever titan)
4,400+ of Cygnar (all models for the faction)
1,500+ of Legion (just started)