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So way back when I was choosing an army, Saim Hann really appealed to me (I'm a bit of a speed nut). But back then the bikes were very much overpriced, as were shining spears, and the swooping hawks were so-so (all in my humble opinion, of course). Well, surprise surprise, I'm told the new codex brings down the price of the first two, and makes hawks a pretty handy unit. So I'm once again toying with the idea of a Saim Hann army.
Now, obviously the rules for Saim Hann don't exist in the new codex, but given that Jetbikes are troops, that shouldn't be a worry.
Now, I haven't seen the codex yet, so I'm just going off stuff I've read on the net.
I'm envisaging something roughly like:
Autarch with jetbike/laser lance
6 groups of 3 Jetbikes, each with a Shuricannon
Group of around 5 Shining Spears (joined by the Autarch)
Large squad of Hawks
(Either another squad of either of the above, or a squadron of vypers armed with, oh, I don't know, starcannons for heavy infantry killing?)
Call it 3 Falcons (or Fire Prisms, probably a mix of the two).
Now, I'm not normally an Eldar player (play Dark Eldar) so I was wondering if someone could give me a rough idea of how many points that would be. I'm not asking for points values, just one number to give an idea of what I could fit in.
My second question relates to how people feel about this style of army. I recognise that I have minimum jetbike squads, and they'd be the first thing to increase if I have spare points. I also recognise that 3 Falcons may be a bit heavy, and I might trade one for more bikes. I'd probably deck out the Falcons to deal with heavy infantry and vehicles. The jetbikes would be for harassment and whittling the enemy down. The hawks would pick on vehicles mainly. The shining spears would be there to deliver hammer blows to units that get isolated.
Basically I envisage an army that can fade away as quickly as it came, which is what I wanted with DE, but really, once you commit to an attack with DE you're there to stay. You never really jump back on your Raiders and fly away. So that's what this army is about. Always nearly there, but never quite close enough to get to grips with.
And for the record, the reason I don't get a codex already is that it's not out here for another week or two, and I'm impatient :rolleyes:
I'm a Saim-Hann player. Though I don't have the new codex yet since it's not out here (UK) yet either, but I have read it at least.
I would estimate that that army would go up to somewhere around the 1100 point mark, excluding any vehicle & exarch upgrades. However I'd make some changes. Maybe cut down on one Falcon, and only use 2 Fire Prisms since they really do rock. Those jetbike squads could do with some pimping, I'd use 6 jetbikes with 2 starcannons in each, as 3-man squads won't last long and really won't do much. I'd personally also attach a Warlock with either Conceal or Embolden to both, but for that you need a Farseer of course.
Vypers are a good idea, and are best used for light tank or light infantry killing with the new codex, since starcannons now suck. I'm probably going for a scatter laser or 2x shuriken cannons on Vypers.
Thanks for the reply Anacron.
I've got some more questions:
I was under the impression that Fire Prisms were out of favour in the old Codex, and that regular Falcons were the preferred tank. What's happened to change this so much that you're now suggesting 2 Fire Prisms?
The larger groups of jetbikes make sense in terms of the enemy having to damage more of them to make them run, but my counter to that is that surely with such a small group (3), if they do run, you'll never be losing a significant portion of your army. So even if you do screw up and lose a unit you'd lose less than 100 points worth, and have plenty where that came from. What do you think of this idea?
(Obviously if I were to add more jetbikes it would make sense to reduce the number of groups and take group size up to 6 so I can fit lots of shuricannons in).
You suggest taking Vypers with Scatter Lasers to help deal with light infantry. To this I would say that I would have thought heavy infantry would be more of an issue. Hawks and tanks to kill tanks, jetbikes can do a decent job on the light infantry, but as it stood the only heavy infantry killer I had was the shining spears. I know 4 shots of S6 on a scatter laser is nothing to scoff at, but against Marine equivalents I can't see it making a huge dent. Do starcannons really suck that much now? Or is it just a general backlash from people because they used to be blooming awesome?
Had considered the warlocks, and I have no real problem with taking a farseer. I think that would be something that would need playtesting in terms of unit size and purpose. ie in an ideal world all the jetbikes are just doing pop-out attacks like Tau Crisis suits and thus not being shot or assaulted, and thus not needing any warlock powers.
1. Yes, Fire Prisms used to suck. With the new codex, Fire Prisms are awesome since they can combine their prism cannon firepower into a single shot. Combining 2 Fire Prisms you get either a Large Blast S:6 AP:3 shot, or a Small Blast S:10 AP:1 shot. Perfect for killing off marines or popping Land Raiders. And with the 60" range, it's hard for them to shoot back. Oh, did I mention FPs are now BS:4 as well?
2. Small units isn't a bad idea, for the reasons you mention, but I always prefer having largish units that can actually do something well. At 6 models they're still small enough to hide behind terrain, though if you add a Warlock you can either give them a 5+ cover save anyway or let them re-roll Morale/Pinning tests (or a heavy flamer). I'm currently undecided about which power to use.
You have a good point about the pop-out-and-back, so they shouldn't get targeted too much (specially since most opponents think jetbikes are still rubbish), so if you went that way the Destructor power - the heavy flamer - would be best. The Farseer could then be used to Guide and/or Doom the unit and your target.
3. I was under the false impression that starcannons had now been hugely nerfed, but thankfully I was wrong. Starcannons are still a good choice, but with the only 2 shots I think they are better used on Falcons and grav-platforms. Sure they'll do okay on Vypers (and if you have nowhere else to put anti-heavy-infantry), but I think 2x shuri-cans or scatter lasers might be better.
I think Anacron may have misread or you may have edited your first post. That's list should land you between 1500 and 2000 pts. I'm guessing 1700.
For the jetbikes there is something to be said for the mini squads. Namely that it's hard to deal with all of them. If the enemy threatens one they can turbo boost 24 inches away OVER terrain and let the other ones keep doing there thing.
Their firepower isn't impressive but their evasion ability is so hopefully it balances out.
I would shy away from vypers, particularily ones with shuri cannons. Why? Because in your particular list you have the ability to completly deny the enemy any tagets within 24" or if there is a target it'll be a falcon. I'm guessing the vypers would in practice get shot down by units that otherwise would just be sitting there without a good target.
Hawks are good since you're short on anti armor. And shining spears are just good now. I'd probably go with two squads of them though instead of the vypers you mentioned. This is because spears aren't meant for protracted combat. They will lose on the second round of combat if they didn't win on nearly finish off the other unit on the first. Therefore unless you're picking off a tiny squad you don't
You also might want to put some fire dragons in a falcon. To take out vehicles that need to go down fast.
Thanks sunny, some helpful advice there. Kind of glad to find out it's that many points, actually, because those bikes are expensive! (in terms of $$). I'd probably shy away from the Dragons, on the basis that I don't really want anything that can't move itself quick. With dragons, they'd either need to get picked up by the Falcon again, or they'd be stranded.
Something I haven't asked yet, but which is pretty important:
Do people think a list like this could hold its own? Obviously it would probably rely on mission objectives a bit more than some of the other styles of armies, but in general would it do okay for itself with an average (read: thoughtful but not so experienced) player at the helm?
See I am a Siam Hann player, although they will be going in the attic as I start a new Eldar army.
Can this this sort of army hold its own? no, that is the odd thing with Siam Hann, it never holds it s own, but it still wins.
Can this sort of army win? yes, hands down
Changes I would make:
1, more vypers, much fluff for Siam Hann, although be tempted by scatter lasers now rather than star cannon, with a shuriken catapult upgrade these put out 7 shots with a strength higher than that of a heavy bolter
2. Fire prisms - I find I am still noneplussed by them, they have improved, but you need to stack them, by taking out one, a marine player gets his saves back, which means it does only one third of the damage. Compare this to the falcon, and it aint a patch. 3 Falcons is lethal, equipped properly these guys can put out up to 10 shots per turn and can take an awful lot of kicking and keep ticking
3. Spears - be carefuil of oversizing this squad, also be aware that because of the various deployment rules, the autarch may not have the oportunity to join the squad
Everything you have been told is a lie!
Um, huh? Are you trying to say that it either wins big or loses big with few close games/draws?Originally Posted by Cheredanine
No, I am saying Siam Hann played fluffily are a very odd army, you dont appear to engage, fighting against Siam Hann should be like trying to punch clouds, your opponent should always feel like he is one turn away from beating you up, as his frustration builds, he makes mistakes and it goes pear shaped for him.
Personnaly I have one draw and about 10 wins in the last 2 years, this is not my main army, if you fought the sam person/people over and over again you would end up getting kicked every time as they learn how to beat you and ultimatley the amry has no substance to it
Everything you have been told is a lie!
The way that you describe a Saim Hann army is exactly what I envisaged, and a concept that appeals to me greatly. So this is good.
You say also that if I were to play the same people repeatedly that they would eventually work it out and that I'd get beaten every time. Why do you say this? I know that armies can be tailored against, and I know that armies have vulnerabilities to certain other armies, but I don't understand why you think that the army would get beaten once it had played the same opponent a few times. Obviously this is a bit discouraging for someone wishing to start an army like this.