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Thread: Without Number?

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    Member Marious's Avatar
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    Without Number?

    I have been mulling over the without number rule, and I was wondering what your take on it was. I know that if you run large broods, it could become more of a curse that a blessing, but what about running the bare minimum of units and paying using it? Could it infact play out in your favor, as my current set up has my Termagaunts right at 8 pts apiece, so they would only be netting about 88 pts per brood they kill, and they just respawn at the start of your next turn.

    Then again, I turn to your wisdom, as I have only been doing Tyranids for about 3 days now, and surely you all have been playing much longer. I know that it first with my 'roach' fluff nicely, but going fluffy is not always the way to go IMO...

    Ist doch so gut gewürzt und so schön flambiert und so liebevoll auf Porzellan serviert Dazu ein guter Wein und zarter kerzenschein Ja da lass ich mir Zeit Etwas Kultur muss sein.

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    It's a Trap! Warrior47's Avatar
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    If you are playing victory points, never use without number. You have more expensive gaunts that respawn but everytime they die, they count victory points for your opponent. This makes it easy for players that have some mortars or bassies to quickly get a ton of points without much work.

    If you are playing on a large map, don't use it. It will take several turns to catch up to your synapse and the respawn becomes useless.

    That being said, on a 4'x4' map, it can be usefull to swamp your opponent. The problem is, to make it effective, you need to use them like kamikazes. If you don't sen them on attacks that could kill them off while hurting your opponent, you can end up with a squad having one or two guys left that your opponent just wont shoot.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Paint Monkey
    I can't offer anything new here but I just laughed my arse off that LO has an Irish accent.

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    Member Marious's Avatar
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    that was the idea i was working with. I just take my gaunts, give em a fleshborer, AG + I so that they can get their hits in first, and fleshhooks so that they can just jump over terrain, and that puts them right at 8 points a pop. And most of the games i play are 4 x 4 and 1000 pt limits. I dont know, I like it, and it is not widely used, and I enjoy the idea of swarming over people, like zerglings gone wrong, but I also understand the argument that if you use it in the wrong situation, you can screw yourself over.
    Ist doch so gut gewürzt und so schön flambiert und so liebevoll auf Porzellan serviert Dazu ein guter Wein und zarter kerzenschein Ja da lass ich mir Zeit Etwas Kultur muss sein.

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    Game Over boys macewind's Avatar
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    I wont use it, if they re spawned from a hive node or somthing on the board then yeah great, but from the table edge is just impractical and next to useless. If your looking to swamp your enemy's take LOTS of spine gaunts. Sure spinefists arnt as good as borers or devourers, but as a rule the borers and spitters arnt much cop either.

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    Senior Member Forsaken2544's Avatar
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    Well, I am not a tyranid player, but I do have the codex, and have seen them used to good effect. Maybe I will be able to help a little bit, and not expose my ignorance in a spectacular fashion.

    Without number should be used with medium size broods. To large, and it will take too long to be eliminated. To small and they won't be effective despite their recycling.

    One of the nice things about them, is that they 'fall-back' towards synapse. So, if your nearest synaps unit is in the middle of the board, they will sprint toward them rather quickly. Then if they make it within synapse during the movement phase, they can fleet during the shooting phase. (I hope a nid player will correct me if any of my statements are false.)

    Additionally, gaunts with fleshborers have a bit of a ranged punch to them. (Ok, maybe punch is a bit strong, more like effete slap) But when used to soften up targets that will be approaching your lines, or pouring them into an assault to take some of the focus off of your Hormagaunts.

    Now, if I am correct, the point total magic number that your gaunts must cost is before you add without number. If so, giving gun-gaunts a devourer and toxin sacs makes them a respectable gun unit. the 18" range will help mitigate the fact they come in from table edge, by getting to fire earlier.

    I haven't seen too many gribbly hordes, but I think they would be quite effective.
    * "I'm Significant!" -screamed the dust speck
    * "Call me old fashioned, but an evil ascension to power just isn't the same without someone chanting faux Latin in the background."

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    Son of LO Uzi-99's Avatar
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    I personally also avoid WON, feeling it more effective to just take more Gaunts in the first place.

    There's the problem with VPs, functional brood size, reaching the enemy after recycling, and that if the enemy figures it out they can just weaken the brood and stop short of finishing it off, leaving the Gaunts alive and postponing the recycling for a turn which might well be critical. There are some situations where WON might help, but as stated above, I rather take more Gaunts to begin with. Now if it was like the old Seeding Swarm WON... Ah, but I digress. ^_^


    Quote Originally Posted by Forsaken2544 View Post
    Then if they make it within synapse during the movement phase, they can fleet during the shooting phase. (I hope a nid player will correct me if any of my statements are false.)
    --- Regrouping happens at the beginning of the Movement phase, so even if the fallback move is enough to take them within Synapse, they still won't regroup until the start of the next Tyranid turn. This isn't specific to Tyranids, but to all regrouping without special rules to the contrary. This is mentioned in the Codex, page 28, left column, first dotted paragraph of the "Hive Mind and Synapse Creatures" section and in the main book, page 49, "Regrouping", left column, first paragraph.

    Note that You may Fleet while falling back (as per the 4thEd Rulebook FAQ), but the Fleet is still affected by the rules for falling back (page 48 ).

    Just to point out, one should also remember no charging while falling back. 4thEd page 36, right column, "Shooting and Assaulting", last paragraph: "Units that are..."

    Additionally, gaunts with fleshborers have a bit of a ranged punch to them. (Ok, maybe punch is a bit strong, more like effete slap)
    --- Hey! They pack more punch than Boltguns! =P

    Ok, the Gaunts aren't that accurate, they have less range and usually less shots as well, but for a single shot a Gaunt FBorer is more lethal than a single shot from a Bolter.

    Now, if I am correct, the point total magic number that your gaunts must cost is before you add without number. If so, giving gun-gaunts a devourer and toxin sacs makes them a respectable gun unit.
    --- The problem is, You don't seem to know what the magic number is. A Toxindevogaunt is too expensive to be given WON. =)

    You could take a normal Devogaunt and give it WON, but frankly, the default Devourer Str is rather big a handicap regardless of range, shots and Living Ammo.
    Last edited by Uzi-99; November 12th, 2006 at 03:09.
    "The meat things seek to destroy ourselves. They hunt us as we hunt them but they are weak and uncertain. The inferior flesh will be entirely destroyed, all biomatter consumed. Ourselves will fight to the last, all weak flesh must be devoured."

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    Member Marious's Avatar
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    ah, but with that comes the quirk of WON. They can shoot at them, sure, and the living ammunition of a Fleshborer will allow you to re-roll wounds, great, but using the sward to engage in CC would FORCE your opponent to kill them all, in that using them to tie up shooty units could prove usefull. If I understand this right, you could charge Termagaunts forward and tie up shooters, while your warriors, Hormagaunts, Genestealers and Broodlord (in my case) bring up the rear to finish them off. And when they die (because your opponent will have to attack them or die) they can fleet of foot back to synapse creatures, and continue the process.

    Please, keep in mind that I am wanting to do something original here, not the usual hodge-podge everyone has seen it before Tyranids and still have the possibility to compete against other armies.
    Ist doch so gut gewürzt und so schön flambiert und so liebevoll auf Porzellan serviert Dazu ein guter Wein und zarter kerzenschein Ja da lass ich mir Zeit Etwas Kultur muss sein.

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    Son of LO Uzi-99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marious View Post
    but using the sward to engage in CC would FORCE your opponent to kill them all, in that using them to tie up shooty units could prove usefull.
    --- The problem would be that if the enemy weakens them first, You can't tie them in combat.

    You got a couple Gaunts left and charge Marines. The Marines will very likely paint the ground in Gaunt ichor with no casualties and be free to shoot during their next turn, while You're waiting for the Gaunts to recycle.

    Had You just taken more Gaunts in the first place, they might've actually tied those Marines for a turn, allowing others to reach closer without getting shot by that unit and possibly others depending on whether they'd have blocked LOS as well to other units. At the very least, they would've pulled more fire to kill all of them off or seriously weaken them.


    Now, if You want to try out WON, go ahead, won't stop You. I just don't personally find it all that useful... And I believe that's what You were asking for. Now, if there's one good thing about WON, it's that You don't need to show it on the model and thus aren't dedicating Your models to it, so trying it out won't cost You anything in models. =)
    "The meat things seek to destroy ourselves. They hunt us as we hunt them but they are weak and uncertain. The inferior flesh will be entirely destroyed, all biomatter consumed. Ourselves will fight to the last, all weak flesh must be devoured."

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    Senior Member Forsaken2544's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uzi-99 View Post
    --- The problem is, You don't seem to know what the magic number is. A Toxindevogaunt is too expensive to be given WON. =)

    You could take a normal Devogaunt and give it WON, but frankly, the default Devourer Str is rather big a handicap regardless of range, shots and Living Ammo.
    I concede that point. As I mentioned, I don't play nids.

    Uzi is a savant, and should be listened to.
    * "I'm Significant!" -screamed the dust speck
    * "Call me old fashioned, but an evil ascension to power just isn't the same without someone chanting faux Latin in the background."

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    Son of LO Uzi-99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forsaken2544 View Post
    Uzi is a savant, and should be listened to.
    --- Hardly, I just try to provide references to prove any stances I take on rules. I'm not always clear on all the rules, so if people notice me spouting stuff which isn't supported by the rulebook, the Codex or the FAQs and I'm not clearly stating that it is my opinion or a house rule, do feel free to correct. =)
    "The meat things seek to destroy ourselves. They hunt us as we hunt them but they are weak and uncertain. The inferior flesh will be entirely destroyed, all biomatter consumed. Ourselves will fight to the last, all weak flesh must be devoured."

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