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Well reading through the sudden flood of threads on the eldar in the last few days I've been thinking about why we only love the new things.
My first observation is concerning Mirrorswords on the howling banshee exarch. Why are people suddenly screaming for these instead of an executioner? for years people have prefered the strength over the attacks. Now that in the new codex the powerblades have been nerfed (you no longer keep your pistol shot) people are suddenly obsessing over them.
My next observation is why people seem to think the old tactics are obsolete. For example 10 fire dragons in a wave serpent were a favourite of Viktors (what happened to him anyway?) and now that fire dragons have been buffed people no longer think of it as a feasible tactic.
Also 6 fire dragons in a falcon were an incredible way to use them. I was wondering why you hate that now Cheredanine?
Another thing is that people on this forum appear to have fallen in love with the fire prism. Falcons, dark reapers and support weapons are constantly being advised to drop things for a pair of falcons.
What happened to the old fashioned farseers? when we amuse ourselves taking enemy models off the board with mind war or accompany something across the board with fortune. All these things are once again being phased out as everyone desperately clamours to buy doom.
I'm not complaining with this thread or anything I was just wondering if anyone could explain to me why people are becoming infatuated with our new things and forgetting some of the old tricks?
Just because it adds some variety again.
I was tired of the same few units in the same few combinations, yet when I gave the alternatives a shot, they Stunk. To high Heaven.
It gives people a chance to try out something they loved in fluff but hated on the table.
Its not that the old choices are no longer viable, its that we dont feel obligated to take them, we can try something new, that still might work and still might be fun.
We can have different flavour armies with messing with force org charts or special rules that get up your opponents nose and think your up to something or are just after a cheesey bonus.
Falcons were the best tank in the game. They have not been nerfed. But screw it, I can use the 2 Prisms I bought ages ago and play them without feeling ripped off/disappointed. (Brian " wait you payed how many points for a BS3 Lascannon?HAAAAHAAAHAAAHAAAA")
And after I get it out of my system I can just decide on a whim which to play. Falcon or Prism. Or Wraithlord. Or War Walkers........
It breathes new life into my old list and I can change my playstyle every now and then to keep things fresh. (Even if I am sticking to Guardians in troop slots). Its exciting and people are just being excited.
I think people are changing the tactics because the new list is a little different. Not very, but enough to get people to change their choice of units.
Well, I really like the new eldar codex. And while now I have a chance to use units and models I never brought before, I also hava chance to use existing units in new and interesting ways.
Yes, everyone loves Doom I am no exception, but I still love Guide, Fortune, etc. I just wish Guide had a 12 inch range.
Some of the stuff Link mentioned, I still use (Executioner on banshee exarch for example). And now, I am not laughed at for bringin a scatter laser on my falcon, or showing up with a fire prism. (Which I still dont use nearly as often as I would like.)
Shining Spears, I bought these guys simply because I liked the idea of them. But now, they are an integral part of my "Speed is Life" force.
It comes down to options. when you have as many viable choices as the eldar do, a skilled genaral can coordinate the pieces together like a maesto before an orchestra. And with the right model selections, your opponent will never know what you might bring.
The element of surprise.
* "I'm Significant!" -screamed the dust speck
* "Call me old fashioned, but an evil ascension to power just isn't the same without someone chanting faux Latin in the background."
As for fire dragons I dont take 10 anymore because its overkill. Since their weapons are better now and they are the same amout of points I dont believe we need 10 to take a tank down anymore. Plus my experience with firedragons is as soon as they step out of their waveserpent people toast them! I like to put 6-8 in a waveserpent.
I still use the old fashion Farseer. My last list which no one commented on (except people who cant put a sentence together) had a farseer with guide on there. A farseer is one of cheapests HQ's if you just give him a power and Sspear and let him go at it. Personally I dont leave home without a Farseer, because I think an Autrarch is a classy way to waste points (unless he is on bike with a spear).
Though I do believe to stay competitive we need to change some of our tactics around. People can no longer make 5 man guaridan squads and throw a starcannon in them hoping to win. I have been talking about using mini squads of 10 and starcannon because its 105 pts,but people insist on taking a warlock with conceal and adding another 45 pts to the squad (which since the platforms can now fleet its just that much easier to get cover). I think people are still adapting to the new things in the codex and it will take time before we see standard defacto lists (If we ever see them again because their is alot of good stuff!).
No hesitation, I agree - executioners are the way to goMy first observation is concerning Mirrorswords on the howling banshee exarch. Why are people suddenly screaming for these instead of an executioner? for years people have prefered the strength over the attacks. Now that in the new codex the powerblades have been nerfed (you no longer keep your pistol shot) people are suddenly obsessing over them.Never was that keen on this tactic but I would say that it has improved with the changes to upgrades rather than got worse, however it still suffers from my issues as per belowMy next observation is why people seem to think the old tactics are obsolete. For example 10 fire dragons in a wave serpent were a favourite of Viktors (what happened to him anyway?) and now that fire dragons have been buffed people no longer think of it as a feasible tactic.Hate is putting it rather strong, I just dont think it is efficient, and it is nothing to do with the new codex, I have been saying that for three or four years now, just no one has noticed until the new codex came out. My issue is that the tactic gets you a dead enemy tank or 3-4 dead enemy infantry, at the expense of putting your falcon near plasma guns, melta guns and god knows what else, possibly losing a rounds shooting, maybe even 2 and your dragons get charged or shot up the next round. It works if you want to pay the price, but if the falcon sat back and shot it would pretty much achieve the same thing for half the points and lower riskAlso 6 fire dragons in a falcon were an incredible way to use them. I was wondering why you hate that now Cheredanine?Not sure about the gramar here, are you saying they love prisms or all the HS choices? me I prefer falcons, however if you mean all HS choices then as a Siam Hann player, I only take 1 any way, not sure what your point is?Another thing is that people on this forum appear to have fallen in love with the fire prism. Falcons, dark reapers and support weapons are constantly being advised to drop things for a pair of falcons.Doom has its uses. Mind war was rather moody unless you played Ulthwe and had a seer council that could take a number of tries at itWhat happened to the old fashioned farseers? when we amuse ourselves taking enemy models off the board with mind war or accompany something across the board with fortune. All these things are once again being phased out as everyone desperately clamours to buy doom.
Doom is specifically designed to complement the "integrated" way eldar works, the old powers area by no means dead, you will find a lot of people are giving both doom and guide to their farseer, with spirit stones this is a lethal tag team.
It is about what works, people should not and are not taking old powers just cos they used toPeople are generally picking up new stuff that:I'm not complaining with this thread or anything I was just wondering if anyone could explain to me why people are becoming infatuated with our new things and forgetting some of the old tricks?
b) there is currently no established and well known counter to
Everything you have been told is a lie!
Actually 10 fire dragons in a wave serpent was often seen as an incredibly good unit and incredibly hard to pull off right. It was designed to hunt enemy MEQ's as all you needed was 2 shooting phases (1 against termies) and they were all set. The trick was deploying them with their short range so as to stay hidden from as many enemies as possible.
For hunting tanks the traditional 6 fire dragons in a falcon seems good but Cheredenine dislikes that now too for some reason.
And what about vypers? I haven't seen them in an army list yet. Warp Spiders too.
These 2 units were great in the last codex, they provided a heavy punch with a few tricks up their sleeve.
but as a general tactic, it is a huge investment of points on a tactic that your opponent or the board can render invalidas above, there is no now to it, I stopped using this trick with my Ulthwe about 4 years ago, I since switched to Siam Hann and am now starting a new Eldar army, however it is not a dislike, I just think the damage you do for the risk and points investment is not efficient, there are certainly worse things you can do and it can work in some armies, predominantly those fixated on assault with lots of banshees/scorpions/harleys, but generally the points can be better spentFor hunting tanks the traditional 6 fire dragons in a falcon seems good but Cheredenine dislikes that now too for some reason.Havent you? I have 8 in my Siam Hann and 3 in my new list, I never particularly liked warp spiders but they will be an option in my new list to try out, the lack of AP is my main concernAnd what about vypers? I haven't seen them in an army list yet. Warp Spiders too.As aboveThese 2 units were great in the last codex, they provided a heavy punch with a few tricks up their sleeve.
Everything you have been told is a lie!
Hey thats not fair you posted just before me. Now it looks like im arguing with you instead of infamousrice.
In my games my falcons usually do survive the masses of meltaguns and plasma guns. They normally come out only shaken and with vectored engines now I'm certain they'll never die. I guess we each have different opponents though. The only people that could bring down a falcon are the necrons.
Lack of ap on a warp spider is a concern. :rolleyes: and scatter lasers and shuriken cannons don't lack ap at all.
Well, it's true that I haven't seen any Vypers and Warp Spiders so far, but I guess that can be explained.
People used to love Warp Spiders for their speed AND their moving through anything. Now since they're Jump infantry, I guess people found some substitues in Swooping Hawks as Fast Attack. (the new hawks are truly great, that we know)
Vypers...it could be because of the fall of the Starcannon. People at my nearby centre liked starcannons on Vypers. But personally, I believe that they've been pushed aside to make room for the War Walkers, which like the vypers, serve as fire support. So, no, it hasn't been downgraded, its just the other options have been upgraded.
Well, overall, people like new stuff, it's just trend, really.
But not entirely. Mirrorswords to Executioner is actually a good question. Personally I like executioners more, but you've got to see that with mirrorswords, the exarch gets 5 attacks on the charge instead of 3 with the executioner. Though it has a significantly higher strength, eg. against a Meq, you'll be Dooming the squad anyway, the benefits of rerolling 3 3+ to wound isn't as worth it as rerolling 5 5+ to wound. Maybe people just like to keep the strength of the whole squad as a whole, instead of having a S5 sticking out.
But overall, people still like new stuff.
I don't see how 6 fire dragons in a Falcon isn't being used now. (It's a must in a Biel-Tan army, in my opinion) I thought people still use them a lot, don't they?