Skimmer entry via surrounded WWP - Warhammer 40K Fantasy

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  1. #1
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    Skimmer entry via surrounded WWP

    Dear Lo, my first post and one which I would like to throw out to the masses and get opinions on please.

    Thanks to a partly-useful (although not entirely satisfactory) FAQ v.4 for the DE, we all now know that it is possible for an enemy unit to surround a WWP and to quote the FAQ ‘if an enemy unit surrounds the portal, then you cannot use it to enter the table’, thus rendering it useless.

    For me, this simple explanation does not consider and apply the description for skimmers, which can be found on page 70 of the BBB – first sentence in particular.

    We know that enemy models may not finish their turn situated upon the portal, essentially, they may only surround it and as it classified as a table edge, albeit a circular one, they may be placed right up against that edge, thus blocking any infantry type unit. But consider the following;

    By virtue of the fact that skimmers may move unhindered over ground-locked troops (as is clearly stated in the BB and that no reference is given regarding how close they come to said units, I would argue that skimmers may enter play via a WWP surrounded by enemy units.

    All we have to go by re the WWP’s shape and size is that we use the ‘blast template’ to act as our rather mobile table edge. Does this mean then that the portal opens flat upon the ground (?), which if you picture it, any troops entering would effectively appear to be flying out of the earth (think Stargate:1). Or is it a portal with a shape and structure to it, consider a sphere or any other three dimensional shape for that matter. Does the portal stretch up and away from the ground and if so, how tall is it once it has been activated? I would suggest that through the fact that it cannot be destroyed that it’s structure would stay fairly solid and permanent in shape and form.

    I feel that all of these questions have been either dismissed or not considered by GW, who (to repeat) simply say ‘‘if an enemy unit surrounds the portal, then you cannot use it to enter the table’ and so, I put it to you all – Can a skimmer enter via a surrounded web way portal?

    Thanks,

    SB.


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  3. #2
    Member bubbathebrute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smoked bacon View Post
    We know that enemy models may not finish their turn situated upon the portal, essentially, they may only surround it and as it classified as a table edge, albeit a circular one, they may be placed right up against that edge, thus blocking any infantry type unit. But consider the following;
    Why do you say that enemy models may not be positioned ontop of the wwp? Do you believe that friendly models cannot as well? I always played that both could. I could be wrong though.

    To answer your question, I dont believe that skimmers can come in if the wwp is surrounded.The faq says if it is surrounded by enemies then you may not enter through it. I dont think that it needs to specify for skimmers as its ruling applies to all. Thats my take on it.

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    I think most DE players believe the skimmer rules take affect and skimmers can come out. Thats the way I think they should be played. I generally argue that a skimmer can come in from reserve and pass over size 3 terrain.

    However, if you play someone familiar who uses the faq in RAW fashion, you can have trouble. Then it could be a judge's call in tourney. I have a friend at the store who insists that the FAQ says "Nothing" comes out. Drives me nuts

    One simple way to keep your portal from being stood on is to model it so nothing can stand on it. There is no GW model for a portal other than it is the blast template in size. So model to advantage.

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    Member Akumakaji's Avatar
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    <<One simple way to keep your portal from being stood on is to model it so nothing can stand on it. There is no GW model for a portal other than it is the blast template in size. So model to advantage.>>

    This kind of stuff is metagaming and like cheating, and rightly frowned apon. If you want to model your WWP, that is great and cool, but besides gratulations for your modelling skills you wont get any ingame bonuses from such a thing. This is the same kind of stuff like modelling your wizzards with staffs in such a way that no one can get in btb contact with them and therefor never engage them etc

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    This kind of stuff is metagaming and like cheating, and rightly frowned apon. If you want to model your WWP, that is great and cool, but besides gratulations for your modelling skills you wont get any ingame bonuses from such a thing. This is the same kind of stuff like modelling your wizzards with staffs in such a way that no one can get in btb contact with them and therefor never engage them etc
    Dont be rediculous. Its totally within the rules of the game and perfectly acceptable within tournement play. You want meta gaming then look at a three lith list, the old superfalcon or a 40 man seer council.

    I take exception to your attack. Its both pretentious and arrogant. Learn what meta gaming is before you call someone a cheat.

    Parking a landraider on a portal is pure cheese. DSing a monolith onto a portal is the same thing. You simply have no defense against that sort of thing.

    Until they model a WWP, then its up to you the gamer to model it. If you dont like it, then dont do it. But don't call me a cheat and a metagamer because I get tired of people pullig off these tricks on me.

  7. #6
    Member bubbathebrute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redant View Post
    Dont be rediculous. Its totally within the rules of the game and perfectly acceptable within tournement play. You want meta gaming then look at a three lith list, the old superfalcon or a 40 man seer council.

    I take exception to your attack. Its both pretentious and arrogant. Learn what meta gaming is before you call someone a cheat.

    Parking a landraider on a portal is pure cheese. DSing a monolith onto a portal is the same thing. You simply have no defense against that sort of thing.

    Until they model a WWP, then its up to you the gamer to model it. If you dont like it, then dont do it. But don't call me a cheat and a metagamer because I get tired of people pullig off these tricks on me.

    I dont mean to attack anyone or start an arguement with this reply, I dont think there is anything wrong with modeling a wwp but if someone wants to land something on top of it then you have to let them. There is nothing in the rules preventing someone from landing on a wwp. Thus if you made yourself a custom wwp marker and it is impossible to set a model on top of it, you have to let a player play that his unit is on top of it if he wants to move it there. And it would be within friendly gaming to tell a player that he could before the game when there is such an averting model.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bubbathebrute View Post
    I dont mean to attack anyone or start an arguement with this reply, I dont think there is anything wrong with modeling a wwp but if someone wants to land something on top of it then you have to let them. There is nothing in the rules preventing someone from landing on a wwp. Thus if you made yourself a custom wwp marker and it is impossible to set a model on top of it, you have to let a player play that his unit is on top of it if he wants to move it there. And it would be within friendly gaming to tell a player that he could before the game when there is such an averting model.
    You definitely aren't starting an arguement or attacking someone . Actually, there is nothing that allows a player to land on wwp either. Take a look at both the FAQ and the codex and show me where they are allowed to do so. Show me where its possible to surround anything with a land raider or any other vehicle.

    I have no arguement that if they want to take a squad and surround it they can certainly block it. Nothing in the description allows people to park vehicles on it, yet if you use a flat template, thats what they will do. The reason that units can not come out is because no model may come within 1" of another unless its the assault phase (which does not include skimmer rules). There is no mention of "blocking" in the faq or codex. Merely "surround"

    The FAQ specifically mentions we are to measure movement from it's edge. Its not like a demon spawn or a DS where you place a model in the center and then arrange other models in circular fashion around it.

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    Member Akumakaji's Avatar
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    Well, to defend your cause, I think its really redicules too, to park Landraiders or Monolith on WWP ... in my gamegroup nobody ever came up with such an aweful idea, and I think no one will ever.

    The reason why I "attacked", or rahter criticied, you is, that you suggested to use modelling to your advantage ... an advantage that is neither payed for, nor covered in any rule ... just by modelling something in a certain way you hope to claim some advantage for that, and that sounds rather beardy. BUT landing any vehicle on top of a piece of alien technology that bands time and space to enable insta-travel sounds like a really unfluffy and stupid thing, too, and you are rightly upset by such behaviour. When I remeber correctly, our troups are allowed to enter play true the WWP exactly like moving onto the TT via boardedge ... by that logic I would argue that you cant land your landraider on top of the boardedge (you could just drive it of the board if that would be your desire). If someone would manage, in a very unrealistic scenario, to draw a line of troups/vehicles/anything along your boardedge, no one of your reserve troups could enter play because of the well known 1"-away-outside-of-CC-rule ... THAT is why you can block entry via WWP by surrounding it with enemy models.

    I am really shocked by this Landraider/Monolith tactic and would like to hear if anyone has any experience with this tactic and how it is/was managed during tournaments.

    Sorry, Redand, I didnt want to offend you personaly, but I just hate it, when people play against the spirit of the game in gross manners ... but now I can see where you are coming from ... fighting evil with evil is still chosing evil, but I hope that this kind of stuff can be avoided with pure logic. Best talk to your opponent beforehand about this kind of stuff, so that it doesnt suddenly comes up during play

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    Senior Member necronoob's Avatar
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    I think that parking a monolith or land raider what ever over it can't happen. If you are coming through it and they park over it they should I supose fall in thus destroying that tank!

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    Thank you Akumakaji. I just want to point out that model for advantage can be perfectly acceptable and in the spirit of the game as in this instance. Its not necessarily an "evil". It can also be an extreme exploit. For instance modeling a tank with a 12" barrel. My personal guide is I always use the foot print and don't make the modelling an unfair exploit.

    In the case of a portal, I would keep the model within reason and not make it bigger than a small blast template, nor 12" tall. The only reason people try and park on it is because most DE use smalll flat templates to represent the portal.

    Guys keep in mind, GW has never delineated the WWP. They made a bit of a blunder by saying, "Think of it as a table edge". It isn't a table edge but thats just a descriptive device. Unfortunately, a lot of people think it is a table edge. The FAQ opens a can of worms time and again. And as I mentioned, if some reads the faq in literal narrow fashion, a skimmer wouldn't come out. Parking a LR or a lith is just an exploit that people can use.

    I have had once in a tourney have a guy try and race his LR onto my forward portal, but I was able to knock the tank out before he could do so. So I havent had to test the consequences. Most people don't know the DE faq and so don't try to exploit it. My guess is that this could be judged either way or they could simply tell you to dice it.

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