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Force weapons

876 views 14 replies 11 participants last post by  Karmoon 
#1 ·
does anyone know if there has been a ruling from GW as to weather or not forceweapons "slay outright" tyranid creatures in synapse and where i might find the ruling.

im asking because my local club is currently going with the side that YES force weapons do kill my guys outright because Gw uses the wording "slays the enemy outright" and not "instant kills the enemy model"
and so now im facing marine armies packed with force weapons that they bought for 40 points chasing down my 200 point monsters.
 
#2 ·
clearing up my 1st post. i know there is a disscussion thread on this topic. im just asking here if GW has made a ruline one way or the other yet?
 
#3 ·
In the FAQ, games workshop made it clear that Synapse applies to ALL instances of instant death, not just weapons that double toughness, even against weapons with rules that cause instant death regardless of strength value.

If I were you, I would print out the FAQ and bring it with you to all your games. It is really vital. Wait... well, I know I haven't done this yet, but, I can explain... Okay, I'm just lazy. I'l, get around to it though.

And as for weapons that "kill outright" being okay, but weapons that "kill instantly" are obviously not allowed.... that is rules lawyering to the extreme. I don't even know how to argue that... it is just so obvious I can't put it in words. Damn Space Marines. Like they don't already have enough advantages! (I would put an angry red face here, but the smilies aren't working)
 
#4 · (Edited)
Based off the wording Lincoln is right and if you want your monsterous creatures safe I think bringing the FAQ sheet is the way to go. However, complaining that one model in the army can kill a monsterous creature is pretty sad. First it has to hit you, and then it needs to wound, which isn't so simple. In about 12 attacks it will get one wound and their model is going to cost about the same as your mosterous creature if they tool it up to survive long enough to engage you. And your bug is more deadly against any enemy, and more resilent too, for near the same price...plus taking a librarian takes a chaplin away from the rest of their army. As a nid player it is pretty rediculous to worry about force weapons, just make sure that model can't get into base to base with your big boys...that is why we have gaunts, lictors, and raveners.
 
#5 ·
Its clear that no instant deaths are allowed against nids.

Strait forward and simple. What about a plague sword though? It says if you take a wound, you must then roll another die and on a 4+ your killed outright no matter how many wounds you have. This isnt instant death per-say so what rule counts here?
 
#6 · (Edited)
This is a very contentious issue. Firstly read the 2nd & 3rd points in the latest Tyranid FAQ. Everyone should have a clear understanding that the "Instant Death" explicitly states being wounded by a weapon with double or more the victims toughness. Tyranids in synapse are immune to this. I should also note that that the Wraith Cannon mentioned in the FAQ uses "Instant Death" in it description.

Now closely read the "Force Weapon" description on page 46. The description states "slays the opponent outright". No where in the description is instant death mentioned. This is not instant death it is a psychic attack. They have to inflict a wound then pass a psychic test. This is no easy feat for a str 4 model to do.

I wouldn't sweat about force weapons too much. A decent brood of 'stealers should wipe him. Run some spineguants as a screen and frustrate him by swamping him with gaunts.

Remember independant character have to be in base contact to attack your MC ( and your tyrant doesn't if he has a guard). Alternatively kit your tyrant with 6 WS 6 init and implant attack & squish the problem first.
 
#7 ·
Hi, thought I'd drop my two cents...

"Instant Death" as the title of the rule deals with the relation between weapon or model strength vs. target toughness. If a weapon's strength is twice the toughness of the target, Instant Death rules take place. If not, it doesn't take place. The ability of Force Weapons to kill opponents outright is a psychic ability and has nothing to do with strength/toughness comparisons, and nothing to do with the Instant Death rule which, like I said, deals only with strength/toughness comparisons. Atleast according to my interpretations of the rules. If the weapon is not killing a unit outright because of double strength, and if Instant Death is not mentioned, then it is not Instant Death, and abilities that negate Instant Death do not apply.
 
#9 ·
one quick reply to misanthrope: in the FAQ it also stated on the next heading "what about weapons that cause instant death that have no strength value." this next heading from GW says that the instant death effect does not just come from a weapon having double the strength as the target's toughness, but indeed other circumstances do apply to the instant death effect.
the question i am seeking an anwser (to which ONLY GW can supply) is weather a force weapon is one of those circumstances that triggers the instant death rule albiet thru a psychic power or if indeed a force weapon falls under a special ability.

if it mearly triggers instant death, then synapse counteracts it, however if it's a special ability then poof! ...dead TMC.
 
#11 ·
Yes - Wraithcannons, but they are specifically addressed in the FAQ. I do, however, cite the Collar of Khorne, which states that "Force Weapons lose their ability to kill the bearer outright", although I'm not sure if that means anything. Currently, I just dice off for it with my opponent.
 
#12 ·
Currently, I just dice off for it with my opponent.
That sounds like the most reasonable and mature option.

You'll have nid players like me, rules lawyering that it means anything which kills a multiwound model instantly.

Then you'll get Nurgle player like me, rules layering that it doesn't say instant death but kill instantly or some crappy semantics like that and argue that it does work.

Force weapons deal a massive psychic blow to the individual. But TYranids are controlled by the hive mind. there's no way an upstart library monitor could challenge the Overmind in a psychic duel.

On the other hand, Nurgle's plague sword affect the actual physical being of the Tyranid, rotting it away leaving nothing too control.

But this can also be said of melta weapons. So as you can see, we get no where.

It's typical of GW to smugly answer one question only to open 4 more.

Someone's really opened Pandora's box here. And it's for these reasons why Niterabbit's suggestion is clearly the best and makes the most sense.
 
#13 ·
ok, but what about those of us who are neither reasonable or mature?

or, y'know... what do they do in tournaments? I doubt you get the opportunity to just dice it off in a GT. Surely GW or someone in a position of power has come to something resembling a conclusion on this... or maybe not.

I seem to be leaning towards the 'force weapons and plague swords do work' side. Mostly because of what it says in the tyranid codex. 'Immune to the effects of instant death caused by weapons which double the creature's toughness'. Seems pretty obvious what they were trying to do. Of course they then expanded that slightly to include wraithcannons which also cause 'instant death' by saying that it also applies to weapons without a strength characteristic. Though I can't seem to find that FAQ at the moment, only the older one.

ok, so which of those rules is it exactly that stops a force weapon or a plague sword from working? Last time I checked a force weapon doesn't have a strength double their toughness. Nor does it not have a strength characteristic, it has the strength of the user. So it seems to me that there's absolutely nothing stopping them from working. Except some people trying to stretch the definition of instant death beyond what it actually is (which is described in the rulebook... somewhere).

XD
 
#15 ·
I'm sure that before every tournament that they'll decide the rules for that particular tournament.

What they decide matters only for that tournament though - and if you want to partake in that particular one you must abide by their rules.

So until GW get their thumbs out of their asses and give us some closure about this. Let the dice roll.

I mean, we decide so much with dice anyway - one more dice roll is like match sticks on the bonfire.

EDIT

As someone said earlier, if you're so concerned about relying upon:

a) your tyrant to be invulnerable
b) Your library monitor to be the only thing that can kill the Tyrant

you should probably refine your tactics and get on with it, on the off chance that the decision goes against you. There's always more than one way to skin an aspect warrior.
 
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