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  1. #1
    Slave to the flesh The_Outsider's Avatar
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    Archon weapons / wargear

    Is it worth giving an Archon a punisher and tormentor helm instead of agoniser and splinter pistol?

    The difference in points is negligable and if I also take combat drugs and animus vitae (depending on points) I can make a S6 Archon.

    Is the extra strength worth it? Vs anything that the 4+ of the agoniser is worth it against (i.e tough stuff) isn't something you'd want a T3 archon facing.

    Other tha the modeling side of things I would say the punisher is superior (but not having much experience with DE I would like to know what skilled players think).


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    On my archaon i usually take the punisher and helm combo with the combat drugs and vitae to get him to str 6. I usually have this as my main opponents are SMs, and its always nice to kill on 2+. Against an all MC nid list or a wraith guard and wriathlord heavy eldar list i would maybe take the agoniser, but in most cases against all other armies with T3 the punisher would be better, as u would still be wounding them on 2+.

    hope u find this help
    zezza

  4. #3
    Born from Tears of Angels WraithGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Outsider View Post
    Is it worth giving an Archon a punisher and tormentor helm instead of agoniser and splinter pistol? .
    Agoniser is a kill all weapon, punisher is only useful when facing a ton of T3 enemies, in this case animus and drugs can help you. Problem is, what are the chances you get +1 str roll? 1/6, maybe 1/3 if you choose two options, its still pretty low. Punisher is more unpredictable type of weapon tactic, yet many find it usefull. Agoniser on the other hand, completely negates the point of all Str bonuses from drugs and animus, so you always wound 50% of the time. So anything is pretty much fairgame, wether is a guarsmen or Ctan

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Outsider View Post
    The difference in points is negligable and if I also take combat drugs and animus vitae (depending on points) I can make a S6 Archon..
    But first, you need to actually kill something in CC and dont forget that you only have a 1/6 chance of rolling +1 Str roll for drugs so what are tha chances? Again, unpredictable


    Quote Originally Posted by The_Outsider View Post
    Is the extra strength worth it? Vs anything that the 4+ of the agoniser is worth it against (i.e tough stuff) isn't something you'd want a T3 archon facing..
    Agoniser kills pretty much anything, punisher is more of a cool looking weapon for fluff reasons for your archon to suit his incubi retinue. In my opinion punisher is only good against armies with majority of models T3 like IG, also the fact that its 2-handed is a pain since you get 1 less attack. Agoniser is pretty much the standard thing for DE, its cheap and is probably the best weapon in our armory that can bring anything down, I guess people get bored from it and want to try newer things, thats why they like punishers

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Outsider View Post
    Other tha the modeling side of things I would say the punisher is superior (but not having much experience with DE I would like to know what skilled players think).
    Agoniser is a lot better then punisher, but then many rely on fluff for their weapons reasoning like taking missile launchers over lascannons in IG

    Agoniser
    1 handed
    wounds 50% of time
    power
    Vehilce glance

    Punisher
    2 handed
    power
    Str5 after killing something with animus, 1/6 chance to be Str6
    Last edited by WraithGuardian; December 30th, 2006 at 16:02.

  5. #4
    Member Akumakaji's Avatar
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    Well, actually you don´t roll for the drugs when you use them as wargear, but rather choose which one you want, so you can allways get the +1S when using the punisher. And the Tormentorhelm counts as your second handweapon, even when using a two-handed weapon ... thats why incubi are so deadly ... so the only why to lose attacks when favoring the punisher over the agonizer is, that one of your drug results that you can use will be +1S and+1attack/reroll misses, while an agoniser user can choose +1!+2 attacks and reroll misses.

    So against MEQs a punisher is a viable option, as long as you don´t want to sit your archon on a jetbike (still needs one hand to steer, eh?), cause you can wound them on 3+ without animus vitae and still habe tons of rerollable attacks.

  6. #5
    Slave to the flesh The_Outsider's Avatar
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    Wraithguardian, since you don't need to roll for comabt drugs (as Akumakaji stated) surely Punisher and tormentor would be better vs meqs?

    I know a punisher larchon is going be a bit more expensive than a standard agonsier archon. A lot of my opponents (unsurprisingly) are marines. So even with (basically) S4/S5 base they would outweigh the points increase?

    I mean, S5/6 on an I7 model sounds pretty awesome vs marines. I can't really think of anything the agoniser would be superior against (point not withstanding). Any thing where the strength is not going to be as godo as a 4+ is vs tough stuff.

    Most tough stuff is also S6, so it stupid to send an archon vs it even with shadow field.

    But alas, I have only played a few games so any and all imput is appreciated.

  7. #6
    Born from Tears of Angels WraithGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akumakaji View Post
    Well, actually you don´t roll for the drugs when you use them as wargear, but rather choose which one you want, so you can allways get the +1S when using the punisher. And the Tormentorhelm counts as your second handweapon, even when using a two-handed weapon ... thats why incubi are so deadly ... so the only why to lose attacks when favoring the punisher over the agonizer is, that one of your drug results that you can use will be +1S and+1attack/reroll misses, while an agoniser user can choose +1!+2 attacks and reroll misses.

    So against MEQs a punisher is a viable option, as long as you don´t want to sit your archon on a jetbike (still needs one hand to steer, eh?), cause you can wound them on 3+ without animus vitae and still habe tons of rerollable attacks.
    lol, I forgot we are talking about archons. I had succubi with her random roll stuck in my head for some reason. But you'r absolutely right, lol my bet.

  8. #7
    Member Akumakaji's Avatar
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    No problem, thats why we are all here, to help each other ;-)

    Some more words of advice: agonizers are exelent in an all comers list sinde you can slaugther Marines, Necrons, IG or any other troups with the same consistancy, with the added benefit of being able of having a really good chance of downing big and nasty stuff like wraithlords, chaosbadasses or even glancing vehicles ... something that you would be hard pressed with an punisher.
    The punisher on the other hand is the ultimate infantry and troups killing device, with the right drugs and wargear (animus vitae) you wil just wade trough standart stuff, BUT without animus vitae against everything above standarte, even smurfs on bikes, you will be wounding no better then with an agonizer. So you have the decide (as allways) what purpose your unit will serve: killing infantry in unholy masses or being effectiv against just anything that your puny enemy could throw in his panic at your archon.
    But nothing speaks against using a punisher/tormentorhelmeted lord, since our plentiful and cheap darklances (just laught at our "pure" brothers whos brightlances now cost 3-4 times more then our ones) can kill just about anything that could pose a threat to our lord, with the right setup not even multiple wraitlords are that scary.

    To sum things up, I have used both lords to great effect, but I tend to use the punisher more against my IG and Tau mates and the agonizer against MEQs.

  9. #8
    Son of LO Tenozuma's Avatar
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    I've always used the punisher and tormentor helm combo, it looks better on the model, I still havn't even made my first agoniser lord yet, instead I have 3 with punishers, my wych lords have agonisers.

    Anyway, punishers aren't only better against t3, they're better against t4 as well because of the strength combat drug, and some will say "3 drug options will get you an overdose" but thats all that the archon's wounds are for because once the shadowfield drops out, he's as good as dead anyway.

    Sure, agonisers are better against MC's, but if your archon is fighting them, you're not using him right, agonisers are the safer option if your not sure, but punishers are better or equal 90% of the time if you're using your lord right, + they look way cooler.

    Also, I never use the annimus vitae and I think its a big waste of points, the actual chances of you capturing someone, esspecially someone like a space marine (most common) are very slim, it isn't easy to use the capturing rule, its a waste of a whole bunch of points you could spend elsewhere, giving your ravager all dissies or something.

    So summary: Punisher = good. Animmus Vitae = bad. Agoniser = fine.

    Pick the one you prefer, if you want him doing what he's best at - killing troops, then use a punisher, if you want him hunting biggies, use the agoniser, if you don't care... I say punisher because they're pretty equal but the punisher still looks better.

    @ Wraithguardian: Even if your were talking about succubi, that still really makes no sense since succubi can't choose to roll for more than 1 drug option unless they buy the wargear combat drugs in which case she can choose what drugs she wants.
    Last edited by Tenozuma; December 31st, 2006 at 00:59.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Bogan
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    Tenozuma - The Burninator... I came, I saw, I posted.
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    Ah, Outsider, you've raised the questions that I don't think the DE community will ever agree on. Having said that, I've only ever used a Punisher Archon, and here's why:

    I use Incubi because they're nice and killy, and the models are cool. Now, I pay a lot of points for their 3+ save, so I don't really fancy wasting it by attacking some uber-lord of destruction with high Strength power weapon attacks. For this reason, I try to make sure that my Incubi and Lord mainly pick on rank and file troops, where at worst you'll generally just have that 1 Sergeant's power weapon to deal with. And when you're attacking rank and file troops, they're almost always T3 or T4. In these cases, the Punisher is either better than or equal to an Agoniser. Outright better if you choose to use +1S drugs.

    For attacking my opponent's Lord or other huge killy beasts, I use Wyches, with a Agoniser Succubus. They hold out well, and the Agoniser is good for killing daemon princes, avatars, wraithlords, tyrants, etc (I play against mainly Eldar, Deathguard and Nids, if you hadn't guessed).

    As you can see, my HQ and Wych units have specialised roles and therefore are equipped accordingly. (And DE speed should mean that they are getting into the fights that YOU want them in)

    On the Animus Vitae, I'm not really a fan of paying as much for it as you do for something that may never work (consider my opponents, Eldar are the only ones not fearless). And even then, S6 against S3 troops is pointless too (although you could always use that +1S drug as something else then).

    On a final note, I'd just like to throw out the idea of el-cheapo dracons. I used to run an Archon with Shadowfield, Combat Drugs, Punisher and T-Helm. By cutting out the Shadowfield and Combat Drugs, and demoting him to a Dracon, I saved 75 points. That's a whole Warp Beast squad! I should point out that I generally prefer to have a whole unit earning their keep rather than just special weapons and squad leaders (why I picked DE then, I don't know), and so I really just saw the Lord as an uber-incubus. If he gets picked out and killed early on because he has no shadowfield, then he wasn't worth that much anyway, and his retinue are still very nasty even on their own.

  11. #10
    Son of LO Tenozuma's Avatar
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    Well yeah, me too, my lord that is accompanied by an incubi retinue is a 60 point dracon, I only occasionally use an archon at all as my other HQ choice is some wwp carrying haemonculi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Bogan
    Teno, you are so godlike I almost creamed my pants!
    Tenozuma - The Burninator... I came, I saw, I posted.
    Dark Eldar player.

    Feel free to PM if you want any advice or help with anything.
    Assume everything I say has a "what I think" disclaimer.

    Hang out with all the other Aussie and NZ members at The ANZAC Clan.
    Need advice, want to talk warhammer or just want a laugh? Come on LO Chat. http://www.librarium-chat.com/


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