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    Are Eldar TOO specialized?

    Now before I begin, yes, I know that Eldar as a race are intended to be specialist/elites. That is the whole idea of aspects and the background of the eldar trying to attain perfection, etc. My question has to do with this specialization being too extreme from a game play perspective concerning trying to make an all-comers list. My buddy and I have been speculating that if the eldar player knows the enemy he will be facing, he can probably put together a list that will win the great majority of the time. That is the benefit of Eldar specialization. The problem comes when you don't have a clue what you'll be facing and you have to choose your force based on . . . nothing. In this case, if you happen to choose the right combo of units to fight the particular enemy you're facing, you're in good, but if you didn't, then you're basically screwed.

    Anyone else get this vibe? Especially in a Space Marine haunted world, I can't seem to make lists work. My main opponent alternates between a hordish Black Templar list and a defensive/mobile mech Tau list. How the freak am I suppose to come up with an all-comer list that has any chance of dealing with both? I personally feel that the main strength of the eldar is volume of fire. Therefore, if I don't blow the BT to kingdom-come before they get to me, I'm screwed. If I take more CC-oriented troops, then I don't have the fire power needed to weaken the BT and they'll still kick my butt in CC. And against the Tau? almost every unit he fields, what with all the Crisis Suits, can glance my skimmers, and skimmers are basically the only things that are fast enough to get into position quickly enough to draw a bead on the suits. Sure, you say, just use shining spears or perhaps warp spiders on them. Ok, perhaps that will work, but you'd have to be crazy to take spears vs a horde of BT.

    Now I fully admit that I probably just suck at eldar strategy, so I would be more than willing to bear the brunt of all the flames that will come from veteran eldar players so long as they give good advice in there.

    I like eldar, I think they're cool, and I'm going to keep playing them. I waited till the new codex came out before starting them, so don't think I'm just complainging because I lost the almight starcannon because I never had it to begin with. I would just like someone to help me unlock the secrets to occasionally winning a game!

    Aggravatedly Yours,

    Argh.

    "There will never be enough peace in the universe unless first there is enough war." - Farseer Eleuflin

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  3. #2
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    I understand exactly where you're coming from.

    I myself often lose as Eldar (or find it hard to win) because of this. You could just take a super-cheesy list with extra beard, but that's boring. More than once I've thought of converting to SMurfs or at least another race but I've resisted the temptaion; Eldar are just soo cool!

    There are VERY few excellent Eldar players IMO, because they need to you so many and such modifiable strategies it's amazing. You need to be in tune with your soldiers, literally. You must play it as if it is real rather than a game. (Reading that back it that sounds very strange and doesn't make sense, but you might get what I'm saying. )
    I probably think that Eldar masters must be the most tactical and skilled gamers out of all 40k gamers. But maybe that's just me.
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    all comers eldar lists usually involve pathfinders and wraithlords. Maybe some avengers in a wave serpent.

    I can see your point but no we aren't 'too' specialised.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordLink View Post
    all comers eldar lists usually involve pathfinders and wraithlords. Maybe some avengers in a wave serpent.

    I can see your point but no we aren't 'too' specialised.
    Some pathfinders, wraithlords, avangers in waveserpent and fire dragons in falcon + one or two guardian sqats with missile launchers are a pretty good core for an army than stands a good chances against anything.

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    Although I've yet to actually play with Eldar, I'm pretty sure that an army specialised in MEQs will do pretty well, since that's what you'll usually face.

    Well, atleast that's what brought me the most succes with Orks...

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaRaSiTe_X92 View Post
    I probably think that Eldar masters must be the most tactical and skilled gamers out of all 40k gamers. But maybe that's just me.
    Coming from playing chess for 12 years, eldar were a natural choice for me. I tried to find the most tactical army and eldar and dark eldar were by far the most tactical.

    I went with eldar because of their specialization and they could shoot. Although I never know what army my friends are going to bring (their options include Nids, IG, Marines, Khorne, Armoured Company, Eldar, Tau, SOB, and Inquisition) my eldar army has managed a 11-0-1 record. The list I built can deal with everyone relatively easily except for Necrons, Armoured Company, and full blown Nurgle armies.

    What has worked for me is 2 mounted squads of DAs, a Harlequin squad, Autarch in a Spears squad and dragons in a Falcon. The purpose of this army is to hit with everything at once, or set up a trap that the enemy just can't resist.

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    My best strategy has been incredible speed combined with lots of firepower and two great close combat units, and one wraithlord for resilience. Against close combat armies i use the counter attack approach. I shoot as much as i can and then i hit them with the shining spears and harlequins. Space wolf, blood angel, and BT players don't even come after me nemore they just hide behind terrain and i have to bait them out. I have enough fire power to deal with hordes just fine too, its rare that nething gets to my lines. Against shooty armies i use my 18 bike models and two wave serpents and just turbo boost everything 24 inches and hide behind as much stuff as i can, i'll even charge with my guardian jetbikes, and fire dragons if i can, i've found its just too much for them to take out in one turn especially if theres terrain for me to hide behind.

    Now keep in mind i'm not completely blowing out anyone i face, 80 percent of the games i've played have been incredibly close and have been decided by 100 VP or less, but i've managed to pull them all out.

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    LO Zealot Heiromyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Battle-Brother Wags View Post
    Now before I begin, yes, I know that Eldar as a race are intended to be specialist/elites. That is the whole idea of aspects and the background of the eldar trying to attain perfection, etc. My question has to do with this specialization being too extreme from a game play perspective concerning trying to make an all-comers list. My buddy and I have been speculating that if the eldar player knows the enemy he will be facing, he can probably put together a list that will win the great majority of the time. That is the benefit of Eldar specialization. The problem comes when you don't have a clue what you'll be facing and you have to choose your force based on . . . nothing. In this case, if you happen to choose the right combo of units to fight the particular enemy you're facing, you're in good, but if you didn't, then you're basically screwed.
    This is not true in my case. Each aspect can be specialised and yes you can make Eldar armies to win easily against another by customising against the specified foe, but this is true for any other army. I personally don't customise against just to play against a specific army, I prefer to create a balanced list and find that I have been quite successful.

    So IMO it's a case of comboing the correct units to make a balanced list, not a list that is biased against a certain race that will earn you success, Eldar arn't so hit and miss when it comes to making army lists. Three key points will have to be Anti-tank, Anti-infantry and mobility. If one focus's to have fill their army so that one third as one of these aspects the army should be prepared for the majority of foes even if you don't know who it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Battle-Brother Wags View Post
    Anyone else get this vibe? Especially in a Space Marine haunted world, I can't seem to make lists work. My main opponent alternates between a hordish Black Templar list and a defensive/mobile mech Tau list. How the freak am I suppose to come up with an all-comer list that has any chance of dealing with both? I personally feel that the main strength of the eldar is volume of fire. Therefore, if I don't blow the BT to kingdom-come before they get to me, I'm screwed. If I take more CC-oriented troops, then I don't have the fire power needed to weaken the BT and they'll still kick my butt in CC. And against the Tau? almost every unit he fields, what with all the Crisis Suits, can glance my skimmers, and skimmers are basically the only things that are fast enough to get into position quickly enough to draw a bead on the suits. Sure, you say, just use shining spears or perhaps warp spiders on them. Ok, perhaps that will work, but you'd have to be crazy to take spears vs a horde of BT.

    Now I fully admit that I probably just suck at eldar strategy, so I would be more than willing to bear the brunt of all the flames that will come from veteran eldar players so long as they give good advice in there.

    I like eldar, I think they're cool, and I'm going to keep playing them. I waited till the new codex came out before starting them, so don't think I'm just complainging because I lost the almight starcannon because I never had it to begin with. I would just like someone to help me unlock the secrets to occasionally winning a game!

    Aggravatedly Yours,

    Argh.
    For your specific problem with Black Templars and mechanised Tau I suggest a combination of Twin Fire Prisms and a Squadron of Warwalkers armied with two misslile launchers each as your heavy support. You will notice that each of those units are very multipurpose, able to dish out damage against vehicles and infantry...perfect against a transport army and massed infantry. Also keep note that you do not have to expose these guys from turn one and can remain hidden from shooting untill a target shows itself.

    Interestingly an offensive Farseer seems like it would do quite well for your situation. This would mainly be a Farseer mounted on a Jetbike with Runes of Witness, Spirit Stone, Singing Spear, Eldritch Storm and Doom. He has the mobility to hunt down tanks and cause massive damage to infantry with his Doom ad Eldritch Storm combo...even against Marines. The biggest advantage is that he can move during the assault phase giving you an edge against marines and play as cheeky as the Tau. Also keep note Eldritch Storm does not need line of sight, good for killing those hidden Fire Warriors or Battlesuits not to mention spin vehicles so that they can potentially expose their weaker armour to your more potent anti-tank weaponry.

    Mobility seems to be the problem here. Mechanised armies are very difficult to fight, especially Tau ones as they can dance around you easily. To combat this I recommend you field units that are equally as fast if possible. Swooping Hawks are good for this purpose as they can deal with both tanks and infantry but Warp Spiders are deadly due to their resilience and high strength shots (perfect for hunting Crisis Suits).

    This is not to say you throw away a potential fire base for mobility, these are great for dishing out large amounts of damage. Gaurdians and Dire Avengers are great for this. If you give Guardians a Wave Serpent too you can set-up a long range Fire Base anywhere on the table quite quickly with a potential of three heavy weapons (potential anti-tank too for those transports) and a lot of shuriken catapult fire.

    I've written more in my tactica which is linked in my signiture but I hope this helps
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heiromyo View Post
    I've written more in my tactica which is linked in my signiture but I hope this helps
    I've read your tactica, just today in fact, and found it helpful, at least in describing how the units work in conjunction with possible upgrades and transport options. Props to you on that; thanks a bunch.

    I guess one of my problems is trying to get over an inherent dislike of bikes, whether of the jet variety or the space marine variety . . . The space marine bikes just seem incredibly unfluffy to me (40k years in the future and you are still using motorcycles? huh?) and I guess the dislike for that has transferred to the jetbike as well. I think I need to get over that as it seems many people find great use for them.

    Now you have brought up two other topics pertinent to my frustration with eldar. Fragility.

    You mentioned Fire Prisms and War Walkers. I have played games with both Fire Prisms and Falcons but have yet to utilize the War Walkers. My impressions thus far concerning the skimmers is that while they are incredibly hard to kill outright due to holo fields, they are incredibly EASY to nullify any possibility of them doing damage. Glance them, not a hard feet, and they are out of action for a turn, at least as far as shooting. And while I haven't used them, War Walkers seem just as fragile, especially as a squad. Even bolter fire can glance them, and I have never played an opponent yet that couldn't find a way to get either his own skimmer or a drop pod or some jump troops up close and personal to take that unit out in a hurry.

    I guess when it comes down to it I just am not using the units properly. I first tried an all mech list and that just wasn't working. Too many points were spent on skimmers that were constantly glanced.

    Anyway, I was just about to launch into a tyrade of my failures, but I will spare you. If you have any practical application tacticas, let me know :-) Or PM me if you would be willing to help out more, I'd appreciate it.
    "There will never be enough peace in the universe unless first there is enough war." - Farseer Eleuflin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Battle-Brother Wags View Post
    (40k years in the future and you are still using motorcycles? huh?)
    When something works, it works - fast reconaissance would still be useful (and the imperium doesn't do proper high tech!). They still use tanks in 40k, after all.

    But the Eldar do have a lot of generalists - farseers, harlequins, fire dragons, fire prisms, falcons and so on. It tends to be the combat aspects that suffer since they tend to be geared towards fighting either power armour or light armour (scorpions can just about handle power armour) with no capabilities inbetween.

    The trick is not so much the choice of which units, but how many of them you take. Units like warp spiders are good, but take too many or too few and you're strategy will suffer as a result.


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