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The title says it all. I know someone that takes 3 of them with 60 warriors and a lord with a resurrection orb and a few other things. His army is the first army i've come across so far that i just can not beat. My army is very fast with both shooting and close combat elements (5 shining spears, autarch, 12 jet bikes, 2 serpents, 18 fire dragons, 10 reapers, harlequins and a wraithlord). If i get all 3 of his squads in close combat he just teleports all 3 of them away, then shoots my chargers to pieces, and i don't have newhere near enough fire power to kill all the necrons and make him phase out. I think i'd have to go completely shooty to do that, and then i wouldn't be any good against shootier armies like imperial guard, tau or iron warriors(especially them we have lots of em here)
My point is i just don't see how you can make a tournament viable eldar army, good against all comers, that could also beat his list, What would you do? mark him down on comp and sportsmanship? change my army completely? or just hide behind some trees if i play him at my upcoming tournamen and hope for a draw? all of the above? I just don't know what to do
thats a really tough one, how to deal with a specific force while maintaining a generalized one? I'v esort of pondered it myself, and its definitely tougher now that our clean-all-messes gun has been shafted to hell. I would really have to see your list to make any judgment calls on what you should do, but without having seen it yet, some really general ideas I can throw out are such.
first. If your army, cant manage to perform well in a shooty position then you've got a problem in your flexibility department. Now I cant say anything specific, but if you have something, anything with long range capabilities, then stay as far back as possible and blow him away from a distance. DO NOT LET YOUR CC UNITS GET CLOSE! not yet. we've already seen what that can do to you. if you do this, you can tear out one unit at a time, and stall until he comes to you. and THEN when he reaches your lines you counter attack. this of course is preferable on turn 6 when he doesnt have a chance to do WWB, but of course that wont happen every time.
another option is to use fire-n-fade tactics to draw targets out. This tactic wont work every time, but if you can draw a single unit out of his draw radius (somewhere off to the side) you've isolated it, and can now crush it, but when you devote forces to this end, be weary, as you must crush the target and then leave as soon as possible before he can react with his particle whips. I think 3 monoliths may be too difficult to take down by the end of the game and still be able to deal with the rest of his army, so both of these ideas are suggesting that you avoid them wherever possible. I've never played this guy, but never clump your forces if he keeps one in reserve. that would suck. I dont know what else to say... so I hope this works, if not then let me know, and hopefully someone else can help you. Good luck to you!
Taking down monoliths with Eldar is definately a pain. The only thing I can think of is taking three or four long range anti tank weaponry. Once those monoliths are in sight focus on one at a time until its completely destroyed, or beaten down enough where it can't do much damage. Then aim for a second one. Beat them down don't give them a chance. Try to ignore the warriors until they become a threat.
If you can take down two of the monoliths yes a daunting task, but with focused fire power possible. Then you can charge forward and assault his units all three squads he'll have to pull two units away or risk losing them but he won't be able to pull out all of the units thats where you could get them.
If you had three long range anti tank weapons that you could devote to the monoliths, statiscally three turns of shooting would bring down at least two liths, with good rolls maybe more.
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Alright. You have a couple options. Assuming this is a 2000pt list he can't have much at all after the 60 warriors a lord and the 3 monoliths.
This means he is extremly short ranged. So if you had a mobile list backed up by a pair of fire prisms you could just play keep away until he splits his force up. Or use any other longer range weapon. A vibro cannon for example. Since all his weapons need LOS you might well be able to use a unit of Hawks to take out one of them by jumping out of cover.
Or you could just use our many 36" + weapons to plink away at warriors. Also things that can jump out behind cover, like mind warring farseers on jetbikes going for the lords(which would be awsome if it worked, if that lord dies early the game is yours as all your s8 shooting and powerweapons will be denying WBB rolls).
Also in many missions your opponent will have to fan out instead of being able to sit all in one clump. Should they do that you can quickly overwhelm that one element. If your fire dragons have tank hunter (which I think gets past the monoliths defenses, I'd have to check that) they might be able to take it out for you. Also use this tactic if he deep strikes. Quickly swarm whatever lands when it lands. Don't leave anything to teleport if you can.
Part of the reason this is so critical is that he only has one res orb. And so he either has to really pack those units together or he has to let your s8 weapons (hello fire dragons) and spears deny him WBB rolls.
However if I had your army what I would do is sit back and fire away with the wraithlord, reapers, jetbikes, and whatever is on the serpents. Hopefully your selections are good vs MEQ. Missle launchers will even do in this case.
Fan your units out so he can't close with all of them as one big mass. i.e. some reapers far right some reapers far left etc. Again keep trying to make him have to split up to deal with you.
Eventually you might want to close with him after he's been weakened. I'd come flying out of cover for this. Hit him hard, those dragons especially should be able to kill a lot of troops. Also try and knock out the lord if you can.
Also I'm not sure how portal warps work with units that are totally wiped out. It might mess them up. Also keep trying to clear all models in a 6" radius to deny precious WBB rolls.
Still that's going to be hard to come out on top of unless he's been fairly weakened.
So may advice for you.
-with your forces try really hard to make him split up. You can beat thim then, make sure you're rolling for missions as that can be a big part of getting him to do so.
If you're willing to change forces drop the stationary reapers (I never liked them for that reason) for some nice fire prisms. Maybe swap the autarch for a jetbike mind war farseer. Use cover and range to punish your opponent and keep moving so that he can't really come to grips with you without splitting up (i.e. use star engines one turn to leapfrog into his deployment zone when he gets close to yours). If he gets close to the wraithlord feel free to tuck it into cover right by your table edge. He isn't going be able to get there in most games until turn five or six.
And keep those harlies fleeting when they need to to and behind cover, Preferably on the flanks.
In short what you are trying to create is a situation where he either has to split up and be wiped out due to lack of res orb or stay together and be picked off by longer range weaponry and models shoot and scooting.
1 autarch, mandiblaster, jetbike, laserlance
2 squads of 9 fire dragons, both in wave serpents with vectored engins and spirit stones, one has brightlances, one has scatterlaser, and shuricannon
10 harlies, 5x kiss, shadowseer
2 squads of 6 bikes, 2 shuri cannons in each
5 shining spears, exarch, star lance(just cuz i had extra points), withdraw, skilled rider
2 squads of 5 shining spears
1 wraithlord scatter laser, star cannon
I can lay down the fire power, no marine army will come out in the open against me, my army can kill 14-16 marines per turn if they're in the open, 10 if they're in cover, in 3 turns i usually kill about 30 of them, and thats not counting my 18 fire dragons i keep in my wave serpents. I soften them up plenty for my close combat elements to strike in turn 4 with the dragons. I can kill plenty of tau, imp guard, nids, orks, and dark eldar as i have a lot of guns with multiple shots. Its just against necrons i'll kill about 7 or 8 a turn, by turn 3 i'll kill 20 if i'm lucky, last game i only had killed about 15. Then they're in rapid fire range and their monoliths get in range and my guys just start falling. Once they get close i can't out shoot them, so i can either hide everything i have left behind cover or charge him, and of course if i charge him he just teleports them out and hits my harlies and spears with the monoliths. Its just those last 10 or so necrons i can't kill after i've charged with everything.
You know i just thought about something, i can hit him with my shining spears and harlequins and then withdraw that same turn i charge instead of waiting until his turn. Wow i'm so used to withdrawing on my opponents turn i didn't even think of that.....Problem is i have to withdraw behind some cover.....
I will definately try a game with out the reapers, i don't know if i want the fire prism or a falcon though, i've never been a big fan of the fire prisms. I'll definately proxy a couple in a game though, see how they work, as i think about it i can see them working well with my army, thanks for that idea
Last edited by xinsanityx; January 3rd, 2007 at 06:33.
Have you tried just laying everything down in the course of two turns. Get yourself into position so that you have maybe one or two turns of fireing at maximum capcity unloading everything into his warriors. Follow that up with a huge charge on the warriors. Try and hold back the charge until you think you can wipe enough of his forces out with the charge so that he will fade out.
Just ignore the liths.
i do ignore the liths, and i unload everything i have into him from turn one, and charge around turn 4 or 5 when he gets into rapid fire range and i have everything in position. The only thing i don't shoot at him from turn one is the catapults on the bikes, because i have to get them near some good cover thats in range of him, then i fire them on turn two. The problem with the liths is the fire power they put out on top of their teleporting capabilities, i can ignore them all i want but that doesn't mean they aren't shooting at me or teleporting his necrons out of combat
concealed wraithguard in a wave serpent. Problem solved. Just try to stay away from rapid-firing warriors and don't tell him which serpent they're in.
Swooping hawks too. Although they are a lot harder to get there.
Fire dragons. Nothing better than this. You still need 6's to hurt him but ap1 and sheer number of shots ought to get you 1-2 pens and thats plenty to make back their points.
Banshees are also good for tying down warrior in cc. That cuts out a lot of his shooting ability. Pathfinders aren't that bad either.
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Um. I think lordlink is a bit off about the banshees with the whole teleport thing. But wraithguard are an option. At T6 they survive shooting pretty well and they get saves against everything but the particle whip. And if you get hit with one of those it means some unit isn't getting teleported.
By the way, just to make sure you arne't being cheated, he isn't using the particle whip AND teleporting in the same turn is he? You don't get to do both. After teleporting the only weapon availible is the every-model-in-12" one.
I think the prisms will help a lot. You can either try and take down the liths directly or you can drop s6 AP3 pie plates on those warriors over and over. Since you get to position the marker (it isn't ordinance) and he has to stay close together it should get a lot of models every time.