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Ever since the new Eldar codex came out, Vespid has been quite useful numerous times for me.
All Eldar Aspect Warriors are naturally I4 with their Exarch I5, and they cost minimal of 16pts (Avengers excluded) each. Four out of eight Aspect Warriors come with a 3+ armour save, and the Warp Spiders are hella fast for a lightning bullet dump then jump-back.
S5 weapon has been proven deadly against T3 units, hence the entire Eldar army except the monstrous creatures. AP3 also ensure the death of any Aspect Warrior that wonder too close to a Tau gun line. Their naturally tough shell of T4 also makes those fragile Eldar wound them on a roll of 5+, not to mention the Vespid will strike first in C&C except the Exarch.
I've seen my Vespid ruin a whole unit of Warp Spider before, and I've even seen them kill quite a few Howling Banshees in close combat... heck, they even killed two to three Wraithguard before they fold (which earned their point value back easily).
Have you consider taking a few more of these guy against your Eldar friend yet? :tongue:
Anima Tactics - try it out!
I picked up a box. Such short range and if they fleet, no AP3 shot. Still with their high initiative and long regular move+shoot+assault they could cause some damage - even if they end up losing the assault in the end. Plus they look cool. I like having 3 different races in my army.
i might try this, it has been very hard for me to win against my eldar freind, all of the batles have been extremely close and hard fought. hopefully, this will make it harder for him to win.
i need to find something interesting to put here
Ok Scotty, jokes over... NOW BEAM UP MY CLOTHES!
Mod Edit -
No you won't. Just make the point that most Eldar Aspect Warriors have higher Init than what was stated.
Exarchs usually improve INT and SV by +1
So where are you getting this initiative of 4 for all aspect warriors from, becaue its just not true, which changes things a lot, seeing as all all but 5 of the units above are INT5 (and two of the INT4 units are bike squadrons which means they will not get caught by the vespids often and are tougher to kill with 3+SV and TGH4).
This means said INT5 units get all their attacks back which when facing scorpions etc means a dead Vespid unit.
There are other things to consider as well.
Scorpions have Mandiblasters which add+1 attack and a chainsword that adds +1 strength so they hit with minimum 2 STR4 attacks (3 on the charge) and that does not include the Exarchs attacks and I have not mentioned their save.
Howling Banshees hit at maximum INT with their banshee mask and have power weapons, so minimum 2 max INT power weapon attacks=dead Vespid unit
Wraithguard are +1STR and +2TGH over a vespid, so good luck killing a unit of these with their 3+ save.
Also points values now I cant post direct values but all the above are not minimum 16pts, there are 2 units less than that, and the ones at 16pts and above are all INt5 and will kick Vespids ass in CC.
So basically in CC only two units have any real chance of being wiped out by vespids, the rest will either return the favour in spades (which at the points cost of Vespids makes it worthwhile for the Eldar player) or wipe the Vespids out (a lot more likely given the Eldar wargear).
So sorry but Vespids are not good at stopping aspect warriors in CC, Kroot with Hounds are better with a massive number of STR4 attacks and better WS, oh I forgot to mention that most of the units above are WS4 which means the Vespid are hit on 3+ but they hit on 4+ another disadvantage for the vespid.
The Vespids are not good in CC even against units reduced by their poor shooting.
The crap range of the vespid gun also menas they are invariably going to be close to other units and their 5+ save means any Eldar shooting weapon is going to cream them and Eldar pack a frightening amount of long range firepower that will eat Vespids for breakfast.
A much better way to deal with Eldar is with long range pulse rifle fire (or rapid fire if closer) and with submunnition rounds, the SV4 models are wounded on 2+ with no save and the volume of fire from FW will do just as well as the Vespids poor weapon stats (after all they are STR5 to).Kroot are also better, they have a good anti gun and with hounds are better in CC and are cheaper to lose.
I can see the Vespids doing Ok shooting them but in CC they would not do so well, and as for the Howling Bashees you would be mad to send the Vespids into CC against them and how does killing two wraithguard make the points back they only cost the same as a termie so 3 is only going to be just over a 100pts, a minimum Vespid unit is 70pts for 3 and a strain leader and they are not going to kill 3 wraithguard even with shooting you need 5+ to even wound with 4 shots with 2 misses thats almost impossible, and a unit of 10 with strain leader cost nearly double the points of 3 Wraithguard.
We also have to remember some other things about Eldar, most of the units detailed are fleet of foot, or are jump infantry, have transport options so are more than capable of outrunning, catching Vespids.
The Eldar also have nifty things called farseers and warlocks and they have powers like doom which which gives a to wound re-roll, or enhance which gives +1 to WS and INT, and I wont even go into the myriad of options that exarchs get.
The best thing to do with Eldar is avoid CC at all costs and shoot them, the Vespid are not brilliant at shooting, low unit size, low range weapon and poor save makes them to vulnerable to an army that can out mobilise and out shoot them, everything the Eldar are good at.
Yeah they may have the odd success but not enough to justify using nearly 200pts to take a viable unit and compromising some other part of the list.
The Eldar are probably the army I rank as in the top 3 for causing a headache to Tau players and I am dreading meeting them at the 2007 GT.
Last edited by Caluin; January 26th, 2007 at 18:40.
http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...a-tactica.html (or even have a warfish tag along) to block units from CC and shoot at Wraithguard - how good is their armor now [insert dr. evil laugh].
as a side note, Kroot with kroot hounds are beasts against eldar. last night, my kindred with 10 kroot/10 kroot hounds took a dire avenger bladestorm to the face (killing all the kroot and leaving just kroot hounds) on first round and still wiped out the whole DA squad and part of a howling banshee squad that had crashed nearby (only 2 banshees left, but still).
"To follow any path other than the Tau'va is to doom us all. Only together and with courage and discipline shall we stand victorious. Fight with fire and courage and nothing can stand against us."
- Commander Shadowsun
Vespid look to me like one of the most difficult to master units in the entire game of 40K. They don't have the capability to handle, on their own, any unit in the game, no matter how simple or lowly.
However, I do think they have their place. The Tau codex makes it clear the "The Tau Way" is to heavily coordinate units with each other. I suspect that the optimum role for Vespid isn't even as a counter-charging unit, like the White Dwarf recommends. Certainly, they can do that, if required.... And this leads to what I think the Vespid really are.
They're the Tau's crisis and cleanup unit for infantry. When it looks like something is getting too close to our suits, fire warriors, or Kroot, you can quickly get the Vespid there to slow them down, thin them out, cause a distraction, force the opponent to redeploy forces s/he might not have otherwise.... That is, the Vespid is the spanner you throw into your enemy's works. Wherever you seem to be getting outmaneuvered or outpunched, that's where you take your Vespid. They'll give you breathing room, maybe even tip the balance in your favor, though I don't think that's really what they're good at. They're there to buy you and your army time to regroup, refocus, survive, and win the day.
I would suspect that one should never use the Vespid offensively, but only as emergency reserves. Just keep them safe in cover, conserving your victory points, and pull them out only if and when required. I suspect that, used in this fashion, they'd not only prove to be highly effective, but also a lot of fun.
ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014
I think the point has been made before on this forum by someone, but vespid would really shine in a cities of death match, with their cover-friendly flying (i forget the name of the rule, you all know what i mean) and the fact that range isn't such a problem when there are buildings (tall ones with vespid on top of ) all over the board.
The fleet is no real help because it negates their one supposed strength, their ability to kill 3+ save models, think about it a full strength unit costs 182pts, and to me thats the problem 182 pts of models with 5+ saves, easy victory points for any decent opponent, what is the point in taking an expensive unit simply to have to hide them for most of the game and hope the opponent is dumb enough to just ignore such easy VP prey.
Even the protection they are supposed to offer is nullified by their cost, a full FW unit with Shas'Ui is only 130pts, Kroot average 120-140pts, XV8 teams (say 3 Fire knives with team leader) only cost around 200pts.
You basically saying buy time or save a cheaper unit with one of the most expensive units in the Tau list, why?
They even suffer as support for other units, because they always end up stuck a 12" away from the opponents units, consider games you have played, how many times have you had the opportunity to shoot a unit in isolation, the dynamics of the game simply make this hard (near impossible in fact) to achieve, table size 6X4 average, weapon ranges average 24" to 30", movement rates 6" to 12", number of units, combine all these and apart from city fight (which I whole heartedly concede they will be better at) the Vespids will find it so hard to be able to safely shoot a unit and not get shot to pieces next turn (those easy VP's remember).
At least with XV8's and stealths you have the JSJ move and a 3+ save, FW usually have a DF to offer some protection ad volume of fire and Kroot are cheap enough but tough enough in CC to be able to survive, Vespids just have to many drawbacks to be viable and I for one cannot justify losing 180+ points of some other more useful unit just on the off chance they will save a probably cheaper Tau unit and may survive the odd game intact for VP's.
I really wish they were some good, because I remember the Buzz when they were announced, Marine killing guns with fleet what more could you ask for for the Tau, and then they just screwed em royally, and as has been said before GW will not jeopardize there precious marines.