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So I played my first Nid game last night. 1000 pts (list summarized below) versus SMs. I got taken to the cleaners.
Synapse seems to be my problem, and judging by talking to my opponent it's the biggest advantage he levers against other nid players. For synapse I had 2 zoanthropes, HQ shooty warriors and flying warriors. After the first turn I had one zoanthrope and my flying warriors remaining. By turn 3 all synapse was gone.
Discussing it over with my friend I was wondering if I was missing something. Is synapse really supposed to be that easy to kill? He said that when he's played other nids, the opponent would deploy pretty much in a clump behind the one or two pieces of terrain. This seems kind of fishy too me. I feel you can't rely on terrain. Even if a quarter of the board is terrain and it's evenly distributed, it's really easy for the opponent to set up multiple lanes of fire across any open area (I do this all the time when I play my SMs).
I'm reading through the tactica now (thanks go to Zerling, that's a lot of information to digest), but I still am curious to have some actual responses.
Without much ado, my list summary:
Enhanced Senses, EC, 2x Deathspitter, 1x VC
ST, Toxin Sacs
2x 8 Gaunts w/ Fleshborers
2x 8 Termagaunts w/ AG(I), AG(WS)
3x Flying Warriros w/ RC, ST
2x Zoanthropes w/ Synapse, Warp Blast
Carnifex (this guy isn't loaded out very well, I hadn't read the tactica before playing)
"The internet perceives censorship as damage, and routes around it."
Perhaps I'm being dense, and adding up the numbers wrong, but... it looks to me as though you took 897 points.
Also, it looks as though your first brood of warriors were illegal... you only seem to have listed one weapon choice for each. Also when you said "Termagaunts" I surmised that you really meant "Hormagaunts" since you already listed "Gaunts with Fleshborers", and that's what Termagants are.
As for the list, the Genestealers aren't that great - if you take Genestealers then probably the only upgrades they should have are Ext Carapace and/or Flesh Hooks... most other stuff is not worth the points. For the price of those Genestealers you took you could nearly have afforded 7 with Ext Carapace, or alternatively 8 vanilla Genestealers with 10 points left over. If your opponent has lots of AP4- weaponry then the vanilla ones would obviously have been the better bet since then you get more wounds.
As you say the Carnifex is not equipped with the most effective stuff he could have. The tactica, though not flawless in every respect, will give you a reasonable idea of what works and what doesn't...
I’ll try to give my two cents on this (given how spammy my reply is, its more like a whole nickel). As a tyranid player, you need to discern your tactics up front. While we’re very adaptable, you want your army to perform a given function. Like ‘get to grips with the enemy.’
I’m not going to comment on the carnifex since I use mine as mobile gun platforms, and you seem to be going for more of a combined arms Carnifex.
Now as to distrusting cover… Cover is friend of all tyranid. Lets look at benefits of cover…(and I suggest doing random terrain deployment with your scatter die, and make dang sure you’ve got at –least- 25 percent cover.)
Benefits of cover:
4+ saves. This is king for us tyranids. We might actually survive a hvy bolter attack if we’re in cover.
We can move through cover with little difficulty.
Cover blocks line of sight, most of our weapons are close range.
Cover lets us attack different segments of the enemy line.
Bottlenecks, watch out for these.
Synapse good. Get more warriors, or bigger, tougher synapse producers.
Keep troops cheap and numerous.
Eat marines, they’re good for you.
Hope this helped.
Did your hormagaunts reach cc? And if so, did they actually kill anything? Hormies are way over rated imo and cost far too much. All gaunts should be taken as they are, no upgrades, other wise they are an expensive meat shield as opposed to a cheap meat shield! Id replace them all with spine gaunts or termagaunts.
Your zoanthropes dieing so quickly is a shame, ive had mine shrug off countless attacks and not feel a thing, dont lose faith, they are a great unit!
Your stealers should have extended carapace only. Anything else in such a small point army is a waste. When you upp the points, then consider beefing them up a little. But even then id only give them flesh hooks. Scything talons are great when added with a broodlord since the unit must be kept to minimal numbers.
The best fex's for making back their points are sniperfex's. Venom cannon and barbed strangler. As this is a survivable beast, feel free to spend up to about 160 points on him. Ive got mine running at about 180 points but most people agree thats a little too expensive. If your going to give him deathspitters, keep him under 115 points so he can be taken as an elite fex.
And now is the main reason that you lost. Warriors. They just dont cut it as hq beasts. As elites, or added synapse they will do ok, but ive yet to have any decent kills with them. Think about alternatives to taking them. For your hq go and buy a tyrant! Give him 2 guards and heavy weapons if your leaving him as a walker, or twin scything talons if your giving him wings. Give him warp blast or warp field and he should survive a bit longer than most.
Use your cover wisely. As said its more important than upgrades to a nid! For synapse, take 1 tyrant. 2-3 zoanthropes and 1 unit of 3 warriors. That should keep you going at least 3 turns as you are. Add another unit of stealers for punch, and LOTS more spine gaunts. The gaunts will ensure your main hitter survive longer, or will swamp the enemy with too much to handle.
Can a carnifex actually be considered a "mobile" gun platform.... I would think lumbering would be a better word.
What was your opponent using?
One thing to do is use the carnifex as a screener. Set him up more like this: VC, BS, EC, ES, and maybe either Reinforced chitin or bonded exoskeleton if you want some extra protection. That gives you a long range, durable carni for under 200 points or you could make him a dakka fex if you aren't going for long range. In any case, you can set this guy up and run your warriors or other things slightly behind it. This works better with leaping cc ones, but it will help the durability of your warriors so that they can provide synapse.
Run gaunts in front of the thorpes and remaining warriors. That way your opponent has to pick the target and split his fire. I would also replace the ST on the stealers with EC and take off the TS. The gaunts could do without the AG and instead take hormagaunts or scuttler gaunts.
Originally Posted by The Paint Monkey
Especially during deployment you want to hide as much as you can. If you lose first turn and deploy everything out of cover, it's usually the most devastating shooting phase. However, with careful deployment, you can keep everything but one or two creatures from being shot at.
As for your carnifex, I'd either specialize him (ie, make him melee heavy or shooty heavy) or try this build for him: Scything Talons, Venom Cannon, Enhanced Senses, Reinforced Chitin and Extended Carapace. Comes out to about 190 points. Can even throw on flesh hooks. It can draw a lot of fire, and the venom cannon makes it still quite a good tank hunter.
"Tell me what you cherish most. Give me the pleasure of taking it away." Sephiroth, Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children
As a new Player you might like to have a quick run down of what units you should be taking against marines.
These are targeted at an 1000 point game
Winged with Scything Talons + Hooks + WarpField or TL Devourers + Toxin Sacs + Enhanced Sensors + Warpfield. My personal preference is the TL Devourers these guys are lethal and can easily knockout Devastator squads from turn 1 by forcing a mass of saves remember reroll to hit BS4 and Reroll to Wound S5 thats alot of saves which marines hate.
the Tyrant also gives you a very durable synapse creature which is fast make no mistake use cover hes not invincible but by limiting the Heavy Weapons shots on him you can make your opponent think he is, be careful of powerfists in close combat but otherwise he owns the battlefield.
Spinegaunts, the cheapest of the gaunts, fleshborers will outperform them for killing however these are more the meat shield to protect the....
These are designated marine killers and they are extremely good at there job. You must take extended carapace against marines as this removes the basic bolter as a threat. Scything talons are not a bad upgrade however you start to make the genestealers very expensive, remember what you are really after is getting into combat as quick as possible with as many Genestealers as you can. for this reason my two suggested upgrades are EC (enhanced carapace) and Scuttling (Scout Move) this enables you a turn 2 assault in most cases and also allows you to run to that cover 18" away. RENDING IS YOUR FRIEND
These guys are great if you use them well, and a complete waste of points if you don't. Hide them behind monstrous creatures so they can't be shot until they are within charge range, with there 19-24" charge range they should make it into close combat on turn 2 and at the latest turn 3 and by hiding them they should not recieve any fire as they are incredibly fragile especially up against marines. take RC & ST as the upgrade. Against Marines RENDING IS UR FRIEND. Avoid bolters like the plague as you will scream at me that they are a waste of points.
If he is taking a whirlwind take one of these. If he isn't don't bother. This guy is really for those people who know what they're doing and know the strengths and weaknesses of there army and there opponents. I'm not saying you don't but it does take a while to gain the exp with Tyranids as they are so completely different. I take them, but would probably recommend you don't.
named for the amount fo shots this puts out. equipped with 2 TL Devourers this baby puts out 8 str6 shots rerolling to hit and wound. increase the Carnis amazingly bad ability to hit with his guns and all should be ok. Targets are Marines on the princible the more saves they have to take the better. Also useful against land speeder squadrons
VC & BS the main targets with this monstrosity is tanks but failing that multiwound models which you kill instantly with the str10 VC, just remember that both these guns allow saves so its not really a good idea to go shooting the basic marine.
The Marines worst nightmare, Apply warpblast and synapse and you have a marine killer which takes two lascannon shots to bring down. The best part about ti is if you take 3 of these guys + the Tyrant thats 10 wounds of very tough synapse remember immune to instant kill.
What not to take:
Warriors, basic warriors are bolter bait and once you start upgrading them they get horrendously expensive genestealers are far far better, the warriors fill a jack of all trades roll, but you have the specialists, so use genestealers.
Hormagaunts, They are expensive for creatures that can't really hurt marines in close combat and die like flies to there firepower. no rending = no good vs marines.
Remember to use units against units they are strong against. If you follow these guidelines and choose from the list above your whole army becomes incredibly effective and it means that even if your opponent kills 1 part the other four parts he wasn't able to shoot at through lack of rounds will make him pay
Last edited by Carnifexus; January 28th, 2007 at 14:41.
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Thanks for all the responses everyone. Sorry I haven't gotten back to the thread, but I've been out of town and busy for the past few days.
First off, yeah I forgot to write down that my HQ warriors had ST. I also probably forgot to include a couple other upgrades throughout the list, but seems everyone got the point.
When I went to design that list I did a search through the Tyranid Army List section for 1000 pt lists. I stumbled on this one (link) and everyone seemed to think it was a good list. The only thing I changed was moving the Hive Tyrant to a Carnifex and taking 3 warriors for HQ. I did this because I have the Battleforce and a box of Genestealers. It made proxying a lot easier.
The game just shocked me how quickly my opponent picked apart my army. Thinking back on it I did setup really poorly (kind of a long line at the front edge of my deployment zone). I've just never been a big fan of relying on terrain to be there. When I thought about tactics for my SMs I tried to make sure I didn't rely on something like terrain. I wanted to rely on models strengths and weaknesses. I guess nids are going to be a 180 in terms of strategy. I'm looking forward to this challenge as I feel my overall strategy isn't so hot (I really am about only 50-50 for my marines). Maybe this will help with them
So, everyone is comfortable with having to rely on terrain to get across a board? Any tricks for when terrain just isn't in your favor (as it's bound to happen at some point)?
Thanks again for the responses. I'll probably proxy my carnifex for a Hive Tyrant in my next game.
"The internet perceives censorship as damage, and routes around it."
Well, I gave some examples of screening in my above post that should help protect your synapse. Remember, just because your winged warriors can move 12" doesn't mean they have too. Keeping them covered is the main priority. They need to provide synapse for the gaunts. Also, keep the gaunts in front. They should be there to soak up the fire.
One of the most important things a nid player can do is target priority. Don't just plan to swamp your opponent. Figure out where their weak point is and what can hurt you the most. Heavy bolters are one of the number one priorities along with ass cannons. Both can hurt everything in your army badly and should be killed. Once you get into cc though, it is over.
Originally Posted by The Paint Monkey