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OK, So they look like Eggs. But the new Stealthís have a lot more load out than the old. And I wanted to get a serious look at what was feasible with them.
What really makes a worth while (and points) load out on 25ís? Hereís a short list of what you can take, and the proís and conís of each.
Bonding is a forgone conclusion for me, however I know most of you think that in Suits itís a waste. I honestly canít understand this, it allows tau to stop running away like the cowards they really are. On the other hand ITíS A WHOLE _ POINTS. :o
ĎVre Hmm, allows hard wired systems, costs ten points and brings human equivalent close combat skills.
Black sun filter only makes a difference in the night fighting special rules, and how often does this come up outside a campaign? But if youíre in a night fight itís certainly worth it to have a few in you army. Next is the drone controller: Iíd have to say I think itís worth it to have a marker drone in the team, but it costs the same as an extra member and only a 4+.
On the other hand you could go wild (if you had points to spare) and give all your Stealthís two GDrones, they all have the same range, all benefit from the stealth field and you get another twelve models for 120pts. Thatís twelve BS_ re-rollable pinning shots, plus eighteen shots at BS_all S_ Ap_. (I donít take this seriously, neither should you. Iím just saying it COULD be done.)
Multi tracker has about as much use hear as it does in the infantry section, and a networked marker light is much more use to a stealth team.
Target lock maybe a decent consideration for the two fusion blasters but over all I donít see that much more you could do.
Shield Generator: Laugh if you will, but for __ points per model with one you get the best invulnerable save in the game; great against all the low Ap weaponry in MEQ lists. And you only need two to protect your team from most of what can be thrown at you. On the other hand you can get the same 5pts cheaper from a drone.
Last you could upgrade all six to BS 4 at 60 points, the target array has been largely over looked when it comes to Stealthís simply because of the points cost and the fact that one ML hit allows you to do the same thing.
To make my point, most people seem to think only in terms of what a piece of War gear does if the whole team is equipped with it. And while people will happily spend 80+ points on a crisis, team a Stealth team doesnít seem to rank the Same consideration; even when It has more volume of fire. It was quite clearly intended in the codex that a team should be able to take a selection of war gear, so that it can support itself. Think about it.
Lastly Iíd like to examine the changing face of the battle field, and the roll the 25 is filling.
25 Vs 8.
With six in a team, Stealth, _+ Sv and two Fusion Blasters it almost appears that the beloved Xv8 is the poorer cousin. Iíve seen just about everyone I respect on this forum post against taking Taíroícha. And the reasons are solid; leadership tests when one dies fit to make you cry, high points cost for a decent kit and often a lack of cover for them.
However, I canít remember one of you ever raising the same concerns about stealth teams. I will grant that 25ís canít take the same range of weapons, but with the inclusion of two fusion and shear volume of fire that stealthís now carry it would appear that Stealthís can now take on anything a crisis can, and probably come out with better results. With that many forced saves you might even get to use the Ďrain of fireí special rule to take a character out of the game.
And with Guard equivalent armies 18 Ap _ shots should cut more men down than the high power out fit of most crisis suits. I mean honestly, when was the last time you took a look at the back of the codex, saw the BC, Pl, Multi combo and didnít think ďthis would be betterĒ. It has been said before and I say it again. Stealth is a better platform for BC.
But with the opportunity to field Stealthís (And even piranhaís) in the capacity of anti-armour, the crisis loses one of its long time positions. The fact that Stealthís make decent (not great but decent) MEQ killers makes the Crisis almost redundant. With a lone crisis having far less wounds and really only bettering a 25 in CC (we all know how good Tau are in that.) It still amazes me how few are taken in Armies.
I look forward to considered replies to this post.
Lucy - Graw, stat sharing is baaaaad. - Firedrake28
Last edited by Katie Drake; February 15th, 2007 at 01:20.
I make a point of never laughing at stupid people. They can't help that they're stupid, just as I can't help hitting them.- Aun'Vre
I never leave home without my '25s. One because I like how they look (egg-helmets and all), two because they are useful. However, I don't like putting points into the squad if I don't have to. Bonding is pretty good if I have the points to spare. I've also considered the 'stealth-finder' team, where you use lots of markerdrones to form a gigantic stealthed marker team. The reason I don't like markerlights in Stealths generally though is it cuts down mobility. They are my rapid-response unit. I don't want to invest points in something I'll rarely use.
Targetting arrays sound useful enough, but... It's choosing between half a squad of firewarriors. Half of twenty four and two thirds of eighteen come out to the same number. And that way you absorb damage better because the points are spread over more models (that can operate seperately as well).
Blacksun filter... nightfighting can be useful...
I only take one fusion per team. Why? Because, volume of fire. I like to keep my distance. 20 inches is pretty good. Fifteen shots at that range is alright, but twelve isn't nearly as good. The one fusion shot isn't dependable for much, but it can still serve it's purpose.
I don't think the XV-8 is the poorer cousin at all. If anything they are about equal, but they do different things. Stealths provide anti-horde firepower, but limited anti-armor/meq possible. But the XV-8 is the 'filler' unit. It fills the holes left by the rest of the list. Medium armor killing, you have deathrains. Anti-Meq, you have Helios. Overall support, you have Fireknife. They can excel at a number of things that the rest of the list can't. They won't stop the oncoming tide of Tyranids, but they'll put some wounds on the big creatures, which is what you need. And they can do it at a much safer range. That's why poeple spend more on XV-8s, they aren't in the thick of it as much. However stealths are, by general rule, much closer to the enemy and therefor that much more susceptable to counter-attack and assualt. Helios are the exception to this, however they are rarely sent in on their own. They wait till the stealths take out all of the little fast things, then they start in on the bigger stuff.
M-16 versus a 50 cal. machine gun. The 50. cal may provide volume of fire, but that's what it does. M-16s can have grenade launchers, be used to snipe fairly well, and fill a wider variety of battlefield roles.
[...]and a networked marker light is much more use to a stealth team.
The way I use my XV25, this wouldn't be a good idea. I see TAU mainly as a mobile elite army, like the US Rangers units or canadian 22nd regiment. They can achieve a lot, but they must keep moving. Moving != Markerlight (!= mean NOT EQUAL in C). Pathfinders are best suited for this job.
Same here, so my XV25 are never infiltrated (up to now) and are deep striked instead. They are Tank Hunters or HQ killers. In cooperation with my pathfinder's devilfish, they deep strike behing a tank and blast it. Then, they use the wreck as cover. This has a double effect of 1- disrupting 1 tank and 2- Destroy the strategy of the ennemy that has now to take care of this annoying, yet dangerous unit. This is the broken spear tactic. Now, deep strike a drone squad for backup or a XV8 and the party is on. Up to now, this has been one of the best strategy I used with TAU.
Only 3 XV25 suits and 1 fusion blaster are needed to accomplish this. usualy, Players will send you a powerfull close combat unit as everybody know that TAU are poor close combat fighters. If you've played your cards properly, and have some backup, this incoming squad will be ripped appart. This can go on and on for long time.
CHAOS Undiv.: won 14/22 games EC: 4/7 WE: 6/9 DG: 10/15, TS: 3/7 Orks : 13/20 SM NL : 1/6 TAU: 14 of 24 IG: 3/7
Yeah, I love my stealths (15s better *cough cough*), but most of those options you listed are of limited use. Markerlights on any moving unit sucks. Leave those to pathfinders, and the MarkDrones to static FW squads.
The shield generator is crap, and here is my reasoning. Your telling me that for only __ points each, I have an extremely well armoured unit, that has an invisibility, invulnerable, and armour save? Wow, so now all i have to worry about is the HURRICANE of bullets that will be put into the squad. Just having 1 drone per member, or 2 if you have spare points will make that unit harder to kill. More bodies with great stealth with 1/2 or more members carring inv saves is better than super armoured tau-beasts. Unless you like the idea of tau juggernauts "I'm the Juggernaut *****" - Lalalala, stat sharing is bad, f00! - Firedrake28
Last edited by Katie Drake; February 15th, 2007 at 01:22.
Sleeping, not dead.
Removed by the moderators.
Call me a fool if you wish, but I plan of fielding mine completely naked.. ;P
I have a unit of pathfinders and a skyray in my list, so the targeting array just seems needlessly expensive compared to markerlight hits.
I'm not fielding any fusion blasters as I just don't think the suits will make points efficient tankbusters.. At least, not compared to the other scary antitank options available in the Tau list. It just seems more efficient to load up burst cannons and shred units without armour saves than trying to end up with some combo unit.
In a unit of 3, even bonding seems silly, as at the point it becomes effective the sole remaining suit will be taking leadership tests every turn anyway. At best, it's damage limitation at that point.
The other thing is that against marines (who from a metagame are likely to be your most common enemies) a unit of basic suits will only kill one or two a turn on average. Even with markerlight support, that number only rises to two or three. I don't forsee my suits actually doing that much to affect the course of the battle, but rather, I forsee them being an annoying disruption which might cause an opponent to lose focus on his strategy and devote undue effort to them. For this purpose, I want them as cheap as possible.. 90 points is a pretty good number.
That said, I haven't played with them yet, so as I said, feel free to accuse me of jumbotastic ignorance.
I hated the '15 models and love the '25s, they just look more like Tau suits to me, rather than marines in funny looking armour with jetpacks.
Last edited by The_Giant_Mantis; February 13th, 2007 at 23:44.
You just found out the main purpose of Stealths vs Marines and other 'tough' armies. I personally like the six man squad with the fusion blaster for the 'gotcha' factor. Nothing better than a land raider coming just close enough to the humble stealth team, them pop. No more land raider.
However, this isn't realiable enough for it to be planned upon. When the game starts wearing down though, it's nice to have a few anti-tank options spread amongst your troops.
The sheer number of shots going out from a stealth team make people view it as a threat, disproportionate to the actual threat. What's more, it's actually one of the better things for us they could target. At +21 inches they aren't going see them very often. And even in assault, they still have a good chance of hitting even for the round of combat and enough numbers to maybe get lucky. Not likely, but... It's a better chance than you have most of the time.
To much emphasis is put on the firepower of the stealths and the lack of range, now I for one used to believe this and never used them, because I thought they get to close they die, but stealths are like any other Tau unit they need intelligent use (thanks Oni for the education on this).
Whats the point of running them up to a Marine squad unsupported and just shooting them, they will usually come out worse (18 shots 4=9/10 hits, 3+ wounds 6 wounds, _+ SV= 2 dead not good) so ML support em and the casualty rate double if not more, or send them as support for another unit.
The Stealths perform best against 4,5,6+ SV infantry units (especially with ML support) and can wipe a good sized unit out in one round of shooting.
If playing MEQS I use them as finisher units, I drop 4 MP shots on a unit from my Deathrains or a subs round and then hit them with the stealths (usually enough to cripple a unit) and the 6" assault move and stealth field usually ensures they are not subject to retaliation.
However stealths have one major strength and thats VP preservation, the Stealth field and JSJ move makes them ideal units to just snipe at the odd unit when needed, but they are able to keep themselves pretty much intact with a _+SV and the stealth field + 6" assault move, 180pts is a nice chunk of points and they also have the speed to get to table quarters or objectives and secure points that way to, and this leads to another use.
Stealths are fantastic units to hold objectives, the stealth field makes it difficult to target them, they have a _+SV and a cover save helps and have enough firepower to hurt anything coming close, they can infiltrate or DS to an objective and hold it pretty well, even an assault will find it tough as they always count as being in cover so strike at INT10 and have decent enough saves to keep em in CC.
Now 180 pts is enough of an investment, any higher and it just means diminishing returns for investment, 10pts for a TA is 60pts for a team thats 240pts now the Stealths are not going to shoot every turn, so say 4 rounds of shooting thats 48 hits on average out of 72 (BS3) shots, 32 wounds and 4+SV as an average = 16 casualties so 240/16=15pts a casualty
For BS4 XV25's its 12 casualties which works out at 15pts a casualty so the TA equipped stealth is no more efficient for its points but if you lose the 240pt team the opponent gets more VP's, so your chancing giving your opponent 60pts more in VP's for 4 extra casualties.
Another thing I do not like about TA's they make players think the Stealths cannot fail to do damage which instills over confidence in the units ability to kill, and this leads to putting them in situations where they will get killed more often, they think the improved BS and stealth field will keep em safe, and usually they are wrong.
I always ere on the side of caution with Stealths its a much better way to use them.
Drones well thats been explained if you take a drone controller your stuck with having to give all the rest of the suits some item of wargear, drones count towards casualties for LDs tests, take to many and your in mixed armour territory (not good) and it makes them horrendous to keep hidden and lastly take 6 stealths and 12 drones and its 300pts, it makes much more sense to just take a drone squad and just have them work together.
Fusion blasters seem good, but they are simply to dangerous, some players think 3 man stealths with fusion is good but to be really effective you need a TA (and then the others need some wargear so upping the cost again) because you need to be assured that fusion shot is at least going to hit, but I hate the idea of my stealth unit 12" away from the opponents units (even if I destroy his vehicle).
I have heard the dreaded Deep strike mentioned for this unit but really I cannot see the sense in DS'ing a 90+ pt unit with one BS4 (BS3 if TA is taken) fusion shot and they can end up scattering out of fusion range and end up with 3 stealths stuck in opponents territory.
Odds are your not going to destroy anything and you will lose the unit.
No I take my old trustworthy XV15's (better models, I liked the XV25's at first but now I have just gone of em) with no upgrades, not even a team leader, no bonding (they never need it and never have) and they do the job, so why invest in stuff that just is not needed.
Oh and the ML stealth unit is just ridiculous if you want stealth field shielded ML's take a sniper unit, stealths are mobile skirmish units not static units with 2 or 3 stealths sat polishing their weapons (Burst Cannons sheeeesh
Last edited by Katie Drake; February 15th, 2007 at 01:25.
Forgive me but if we are looking at VPs... if you feel that you can preserve your xv25s then why not take 240 points worth, (which are more dangerous to boot.) That is a chunk of points to deepstrike onto an objective. Why would you worry about the 60 points?
Surely this means that every point you spend is well invested? Because they ae tough to kill and are able to take and hold objectives effectively...
There is a something called the law of diminishing returns and Stealths with TA's are a good example of it.
Yeah I agree, if you're going to spend 240 points on stealths, don't get 6 with targetting arrays. Just get 2 teams of 4 instead.