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Ok well I've found recently that most people I've versed lately seemed to hate versing eldar. Especially my mechanised biel-tan. This isn't due to cheese or anything as I still lose many games but it's a matter of how drastically eldar change the style of gameplay on the board.
Karmoon recently mentioned how he disliked versing eldar beecause they required him to radically change his balanced list to spam anti-falcon units to have a chance. I've found less and less opponents because they all like their lists and don't want to have to change them around to verse me. I think I've even chased a few people out of 40k because they don't want to have to go out and buy yet another predator or heavy weapons platoon.
And it's not only the lists but the tactics. Even tau and dark eldar still come at you head on and try to outshoot/stab you but with the new eldar the conventional 'cc army tries to reach shooty army without dying' has disappeared. My battlefields are usually a tangled mess with my entire army in vehicles on the far side on 1 side of the table. As they bring over their units to help I quickly fly away. This turns a lot of my games into a catch me if you can and a fair few people at CanCon (tournament) got upset at my sudden redeployment. Combine that with the fact they can't keep any of their units safe (dragons just jump out and melt their best thing) and they just get tired of the game. Unable to implement any of their own tactics and just have to stand and shoot and hope I stuff up.
I haven't had a game of 40k since CanCon but the the refusal to play me means I've decided to start tyranids. I talked to some people and they're always happy to play nids because nids at least allow them to use their tactics and at least kill some of your things (even if they get swamped anyway).
So to have a point to this thread instead of just a rant has anyone else out there had a problem finding opponents simply because your opponents didn't want to have to alter their list specifically to fight you? Remember I'm not talking cheese or overpowered here. Just annoying people.
Hope this doesn't double post, computer problem>>>
So the universe is back to its normal functioning. WHAA! Your army moves away from my traps! WHAA! Your army doesn't play like all the other space marines! WHAA! I have to change my tactics! WHAA! Your army doesn't run straight at my guns and terminators! WHAA! WHAA! WHAA!
Yes, so life is back to the usual. I have to admit, its saved me money on re-tooling to some of the new Eldar units (guardians can still kick ass used right). Because, like LordLink, I also started a new army. Called Cygnar....
Players just have to learn to suck it up and adapt. Eldar armies should come at you sideways instead of head-on - they're supposed to be minimising their own casualties, after all.
Even this evening I slaughtered an entire squad of tactical marines by blocking the entrances to their rhino and blowing it up - remember children, speed kills. (I also slaughtered another in the open with stacked fire prisms and some fire dragons in the same turn , oh and intercepted a land speeder ).
I've found you've got to play your own army in different ways. Back under the old codex the way I played against IG was very different to the way I played against marines. The same applies to any army - if you don't try to adjust your army you're unlikely to learn anything.
Having an army and not owning a rulebook is like owning a car with no steering wheel.Originally Posted by amishcellphone
A ancient chinese tactician once said:It's so very true! If your enemies changes strategy you must be able to adapt and change acording to that to be able to win. If you can't then you're only doomed to lose. (well you'll win if you get lucky ) But anyway you may want to have a chat with your firends about your tactics and your list (and their lists as well), encurage them to change and maybe help them along the way. Cuz I've got a feeling that it isn't very fun to win without any challange for you either. So help them out so they don't find wahrammer boring and quit playing. I had to do that once the new nids (yes I'm a nid player) came out and all the new 40k players in my group just kept loosing to me and I helped them improve their lists, not specially for killing nids just to make it more balanced and more allround. And now it seemes to me that I'm the one that need to change my list... as I keep loosing to my friend that plays eldar >_<... so I've gotta get more fexes .Those who are able to adapt and change in accord with the enemy and achieve victory are called divine. -Sun Tzu
Most people I know WANT to learn how to change tactics on the fly and fight other armies. They are usually more than happy to face me, as I play much differently than the one other Eldar player around. Part of the fun of the game is seeing how well your perfectly crafted army fares in a situation that it wasn't built for.
I guess one problem with eldar is the reliability of the falcon.
Most fast units in 40k are lightly armoured, this is a comprise to their often extreme offensive power and speed (ref: dark Eldar).
The immortal falcon gets round this and pretty much gives the finger to any chance of stopping it. So an army that is based around 3 immortal falcons rarely loses (I guess this is because the falcon isn't a dedicated transport).
Its no fun really to play versus something that you can't hurt and is dismantling your army.
IMO the rest of the eldar list is fine, its just the immortal falcons.
Luckily I don't run into them often (seems the new codex promotes a lot of the other choices).
Glad to see some other posts saying how this isn't a case of Eldar being overpowered... Was afraid I was going to see apologies for Eldar using speed and displaying adaptibility....
Seriously though - the new Dark Angels codex and the Black Templar codex seem to be shoe-horning armies into a very set, very specific set of tricks. In fact, it'd be the fourth codex (Tau Empire, Black Templars, Eldar, Dark Angels) without doctrines or traits. Eldar got to keep the ability to run vasty different types of armies. In a system where each new army is being shoe-horned into a specific set of tactics and available options, its inevitable that Eldar will be the subject of much whining.
The thing is I don't win every game. I lose a healthy amount of times.
The problem lies with to win my opponents must adapt their army lists. A list capable of bringing down wave serpents and falcons is a list very different to what they want to play (i.e. why they collect 40k).
I use 2 falcons, 2 wave serpents, a vyper and a jetbike seer most games. Those and some pathfinders (also immortal) are the only things on the board.
What you describe sounds exactly like the way people complained about Eldar when they came out in 2nd Edition. I'm glad to know they are coming back to their roots! Of course Eldar don't play like anyone else. They shouldn't, and neither should any other army. Therer should be variety and your opponent's should want to make a truely well-rounded list, rather than relying on their old bag of tricks.
My friend has always played Eldar. When the second edition codex came out people gave him the same grief. Many at our local club refused to play him anymore. The thing was, he just understood how to play his army well. They weren't able to adapt and grow. He became a better and better player and they stagnated. Those of us who continued to play him also got better.
The only problem I really see facing you is a rapidly decreasing list of possible opponents. Some people will never stop whining. They just want to download the latest super-list, play-by-numbers, and hope everyone plays along. I have never, and I mean never, seen an army that is irreversably "broken". I have, on the other hand, seen many players who can't stand to lose and don't think winning should take study, adaptation, and practice.
I hope for your sake that you can talk them into continuing to play against your Eldar. If you can't, at least it won't be your fault.
My friends and I always help one another out during games, discussing new tactical ideas and their implications. When the game is over we tell each other what we liked about the other's tactics and what we thought worked against them. Then we discuss how to make both of our army lists and tactics better. After a few games like this, we will play a no-holds-barred, very competitive game and will not give each other any help. This tests our new ideas and whether or not we learned anything. Afterwards we have the same discussions and try to grow as generals.
I can hardly see how a little bit of tought and an all comers list couldn't take that.
People not adapting their strategys is just bollocks IMO, if you don't adapt you get left behind. Simple as.
Even in my all comers list I use different tactics when facing eldar as opposed to any toher army.
If people do not wish to change their list, fine, I rarely change mine, but dear god its not like facing anything is impossible with thought and a balanced list.
That sounded a bit like a rant, but I get annoyed when people refuse to adapt at all.