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I've searched the forum and looked into the thread "Skyray weapon destroy", but it still leaves me a little dubious. I ran into this situation today at my local GW shop while I was playing a game to compete for the top #1 place on the ladder board. My opponent is the Space Marine player that shot me with a single missile launcher and managed to rolled a 4 on Glancing table, but here is the problem, he thinks the entire turret should be removed as a result but he did not speak it out immediately, instead, he waited until the game was over when he have clearly lost game since Turn 2.. and went to me saying how my Skyray should've been 'disabled'.
We both went to ask a GW staff on site, the staff first said that the turret should be destroyed along with all remaining seeker missiles, because he and other staff had already confirmed this with the 1-800-GW-TROLL (as he said), but after I point it out on the codex under the description of Seeker Missile, he started to defend me but he wasn't 100% sure either.
I'd have won the game by nearly 300+ VP (in a 1,500pt game) but I would not want to cause a reputation of tricks and cheats, so I promised my opponent that I would confirm this before next week and if I am wrong then we'd have a rematch again. I would like to see how you guys think on this? Am I playing right or wrong? Should I call up the GW Troll number for an answer as well?
Anima Tactics - try it out!
<P>This is a great question. The seeker missiles are ususally considered independant from the vehicle. If you ask me here is how I think it should be played out. </P>
<P>The weapon system houses the seeker missiles. It would be disabled in this case resulting in an internal malfunction. Take into consideration that the signal can still be sent from another unit to fire them. </P>
<P>I say this, The seeker missiles are still active and can be fired. THEY CANNOT however be triggered by the Sky Ray. So if a pathfinder wants to light up another target it can definitely launch those seekers. This is as long as the entire vehicle isn't destroyed. </P>
<P>You rightfully won IMO.</P>
Just picture this:
Infantry man 1 "jeez that Leeman just blew that armoured car up with its turret"
Infantry man 2 "You mean with its cannon"
Infantry man1 "Nah it didn't use its cannon it pointed it turret and shot the armoured car with it, I mean why waste shells when you can destroy things with your turret"
Infantry man 2 "Huh thats stupid"
Infantry man 1 "I know but apparently turrets are now classed as weapons and can destroy things"
Infantry man 2" Cool thats gonna save lots on ammo"
Infantry man 1" True , wanna get a beer
Infantry man 2 " Yeah why not"
if a weapon destroyed result comes up the opponent will always remove the battle cannon, now this is turret mounted, so to follow your opponents logic if the cannon is removed so is the turret, if the turret is removed then the stubber should be removed as well, this as far as I know in countless games has never happened (I play both IG and armoured company), the same applies to any turret equipped vehicle that is capable of mounting two weapons on its turret such as Predators.
The seekers can always be fired when called by a markerlight hit, irrelevant of whether the Skyray is stunned or has no ML's of its own, obviously if its own ML's are gone it cannot call (fire is the wrong word) its own seekers, they also have no restriction to firing due to the amount of movement of the vehicle
Now another question I have considered myself, is are seekers actually eligible for weapons destroyed at all, the Seeker is a armoury option for other vehicles and is I believe not eligible for weapons destroyed selection because the vehicle carrying them has no control over them (they are remote controlled).
Now I know that the Skyay carries six seekers but these can be called by other markerlight users, so basically the Seeker is autonomous (I/E it is self controlling) and responds only to any marker light request, all the Skyray is doing is using a ML exactly the same as any other unit to light up a unit but it is in the unique position of having its own ML's and seekers on the same vehicle.
This throws up some dilemmas to me, because a lack of weapons to destroy is a bad thing because no weapons means it has to be immobalised (never good for a skimmer).
So here is an example, if you gave the Skyray gun drones and then immediately disembarked them you would have a vehicle with:
(a) Markerlights, which are immune to armament destroyed (they have no strength)
(b) Seekers (which we will class as remote)
(d) Disembarked gundrones and these are classed as passengers anyway
So it can no longer be eligible for armament destroyed results.
To me the seekers are not vehicle controlled, if they were then it should say, it says in the seeker rules that ordinarily the vehicle has no control over the seekers and the Skyray entry only says it can launch its own seekers due to having a Markerlight (read the phrasing in its codex entry) it does not say it controls them because any unit with a ML can launch (or call) a seeker and it says that it can launch its own seekers because it has ML's this would apply to Tetras if they had a seeker upgrade from the armoury.
So does the Skyray have control over its seekers or are the seekers autonomous and thus ineligible for armament destroyed results because they are simply respond to any ML hit irrelevant of where the ML hit came from
Also heres another question can the player use the Skyrays ML get a hit and then use that ML hit to call a seeker from another vehicle even with some of its own seekers available (thus preserving its seekers to prevent immobalised results), does it have to launch its own seekers or can it elect to call a seeker from elsewhere.
Ummm.......i don't think the markerlights should ever be "weapon disabled" disabled. They aren't weapons, or am i wrong in that thinking.
As far as destroying the whole turret of the skyray.......that's ridiculous. Pure ridiculousness in all of its ridiculous glory.
I would recomend ridiculing your oponent and then ridiculing your ridiculous GW staffer.....all in jest of course.
I don't care what you say. I found a lightsaber in my garage and that makes me a Jedi
As stated, I went to my local GW and had a nice big discussion about this.
We were all right, the seekers are NOT weapons. The markerlights are weapons.
So here it does, seeker missiles can't be disabled. They can be destroyed (if the vehicle is destroyed). A couple trolls also confirmed this rule in explicit detail.
Low and behold another advantage to the SR. Keep them in the back as a floating arms facility. WOOT!
From the BGB, pg 67:
"Armament Destroyed ... A weapon of S4 or greater (chosen by the attacker) is destroyed. ... This can include vehicle upgrades that function as weapons, such as pintle-mounted storm bolters or Hunter-Killer missiles."
Last time I checked, Markerlights don't have a Strength of 4 or higher. They therefore are not eligible to be removed by an Armament Destroyed result. A seeker missile is not a weapon, but is a vehicle upgrade that functions as a weapon, nearly identical to the Hunter-Killer missle. It is eligible to be removed by an Armament Destroyed result.
Nice post, Mech Commander. Well done.
I'd also like to add that your friend can't declare the 'turret' as a target for a 'Weapon Destroyed' result. Why? Because the turret is not a weapon. The turret is a housing for the weapon that dictates its firing arc.
It'd be much like saying that instead of destroying a hull mounted Lascannon on a Leman Russ, I'll just elect to have the entire Hull destroyed....
Something it could do of any vehicle equipped with seekers (in fact it says no where that you have to use the skyrays ML's to launch its own seekers, it simply states it can, NOT must), indeed it even states that the seeker is not normaly under vehicle control in the seeker codex entry and it does not state that the Skyray is in control of its seekers only that its ML's can launch its own missiles, its own missiles being the ones it carrys (something other vehicles cannot do simply because they have no ML but if they did have ML's they would be able to launch THEIR OWN seekers, that is the ones they are carrying as being the definition of "own missiles").
The 40K rule book states vehicle upgrades that operate as weapons, seekers do not operate as a vehicle weapon, the entry for hunter killers says roll to hit and penetrate as normal, the seekers on vehicles are outside this because the vehicle has no roll to hit.
So if the seeker is not eligible for removal on a piranha for instance, how can it be eligible for removal on a Skyray, because they respond to the same control method "markerlights" and Skyray seekers can be called remotely outside of any control from the Skyray.
Seekers are not vehicle specific weapons and this is what is being referred to in the 40K rule book, they are just carried by vehicles which have NO CONTROL over them, so how can they be classed as weapons for the purposes of removal of a vehicles weaponry.
As for the not trusting GW staff, it depends on the staff, I know a few GW staff members who I would trust implicitly and they really know there stuff, I know plenty who should be banned under pains of a beating about head and neck with a hefty portion of wet fish from giving any 40K related advice, its like any other area of life.
P.S all capitalised and colour highlighted text is simply to highlight not to shout or indicate annoyance