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  1. #1
    Senior Member ZenGamer's Avatar
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    Crisis Suit mixed teams - an analysis

    I wanted to explain my reasoning behind my preference for a team of 2 crisis suits as follows:

    1 Fireknife Team Leader w/ Plasma/MP/TA & HWMT, TL
    1 Deathrain w/ TLMP/TA
    135 pts.

    I generally use the Fireknife/Deathrain team just as I would a normal deathrain team. It's only slightly less effective in this role, but it can still target 2 transports or other targets at range and is still very effective. The 1 Plasma Rifle is only there for MEQ armies that get close such as Necron, Chaos, BT, etc. It is then (and other targets of opportunity) that the Plasma comes into play and really shines. If there are MEQ's nearby, the Team often still targets something in the rear and if the LD roll succeeds, the Fireknife hits the MEQ's while the Deathrain hits the further target, which is exactly what I want. If the roll fails, they have to shoot the nearest target anyway (which is also true of a team of 2 deathrains) which is also fine as that is the immediate threat anyway and the second identical team or one of my tanks can try for the same distant target if it has LOS. I always try to have more than one unit with LOS on something that I want to die in order to have that second chance if the first should fail. In the case of close targets, the Deathrains still need to make a LD test for target priority, and they may end up firing on nearby MEQ's/TEQ's anyway if they fail - kind of a waste of the MP's high strength advantage because of its lack of good AP. If only the MP were +1 strength from what it is for those instakills or if it were AP3... that would make it amazing and the best weapon in the XV8 aresenal.

    The multiple reasons I don't take a team of 2 Fireknives instead are simple:

    Cost - The plasma on the second Fireknife is pricey.
    Ineffective - The second Fireknife only has a BS3 and is therefore unreliable for either role it can play.
    Too much plasma/not enough missile - Let's face it, the MP is awesome and there are only 3 elites slots. I want my cake (Plasma) and I want to eat it (Missile Pods) too.

    So there it is, my reasoning on why I like this particular mixed team. I can't see any downside to having it mixed as I am satisfied with the result of the target priority test either way and a team of Deathrains likewise need to make the test. In fact, with 2 Deathrains, failing that test is much more of a bad thing as they need to fire at the nearest target which is not likely what I want to be firing Deathrains at. It saves me points over 2 Fireknives and gives me the weaponry I need to fight different armies successfully.

    Thanks for reading. Post your thoughts, arguments, disagreements, "thumbs up", etc. I'd like to know if I'm insane or if I'm on to something.

    Last edited by ZenGamer; April 23rd, 2007 at 16:35.
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  3. #2
    Gone LittleBlueMan's Avatar
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    You should go for a team of death rains and a team of fireknifes, then you can "have your cake and eat it too".

    This has been fairly well decided/argued/articulated here.
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  4. #3
    The deep down truth Rikimaru's Avatar
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    724 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by ZenGamer View Post
    I wanted to explain my reasoning behind my preference for a team of 2 crisis suits as follows:

    1 Fireknife Team Leader w/ Plasma/MP/TA & HWMT, TL
    1 Deathrain w/ TLMP/TA
    135 pts.

    I generally use the Fireknife/Deathrain team just as I would a normal deathrain team. It's only slightly less effective in this role, but it can still target 2 transports or other targets at range and is still very effective. The 1 Plasma Rifle is only there for MEQ armies that get close such as Necron, Chaos, BT, etc. It is then (and other targets of opportunity) that the Plasma comes into play and really shines. If there are MEQ's nearby, the Team often still targets something in the rear and if the LD roll succeeds, the Fireknife hits the MEQ's while the Deathrain hits the further target, which is exactly what I want. If the roll fails, they have to shoot the nearest target anyway (which is also true of a team of 2 deathrains) which is also fine as that is the immediate threat anyway and the second identical team or one of my tanks can try for the same distant target if it has LOS. I always try to have more than one unit with LOS on something that I want to die in order to have that second chance if the first should fail. In the case of close targets, the Deathrains still need to make a LD test for target priority, and they may end up firing on nearby MEQ's/TEQ's anyway if they fail - kind of a waste of the MP's high strength advantage because of its lack of good AP. If only the MP were +1 strength from what it is for those instakills or if it were AP3... that would make it amazing and the best weapon in the XV8 aresenal.

    The multiple reasons I don't take a team of 2 Fireknives instead are simple:

    Cost - The plasma on the second Fireknife is pricey.
    Ineffective - The second Fireknife only has a BS3 and is therefore unreliable for either role it can play.
    Too much plasma/not enough missile - Let's face it, the MP is awesome and there are only 3 elites slots. I want my cake (Plasma) and I want to eat it (Missile Pods) too.

    So there it is, my reasoning on why I like this particular mixed team. I can't see any downside to having it mixed as I am satisfied with the result of the target priority test either way and a team of Deathrains likewise need to make the test. In fact, with 2 Deathrains, failing that test is much more of a bad thing as they need to fire at the nearest target which is not likely what I want to be firing Deathrains at. It saves me points over 2 Fireknives and gives me the weaponry I need to fight different armies successfully.

    Thanks for reading. Post your thoughts, arguments, disagreements, "thumbs up", etc. I'd like to know if I'm insane or if I'm on to something.
    All reasonable points, I personally do not like mixing weapon/suppport load outs on suits, and the temptation to use the plasma can get you (not you personally dude) in trouble, also the 2 Plasma shots are nice but I have found that even at BS3 the reduction of an enemy unit by Plasma and MP's is usually quite poor, this is one of the reasons I take a drone unit with my Shas'el Helios rather than another XV8, volume of fire as I find more shots usually gives better results and pinnig as well (anyway enough of Shas'Els etc) and is also the reason I prefer Helios multi to FK for MEQ/tough unit/MC/dread killing etc.

    The reason I take two man teams of Deathrains is simple, they work at maximum range as much as possible and the extra +1 to BS from the TA is more valuable than the plasma, in an ideal game the plasma would never be used so its a waste of points. They have a role which plasma does not fit.

    To me your it looks like your "wanting" to have the team performing against two targets and while there is nothing wrong in theory with that, it can also lead to each component being inefficient for its points cost.

    I take HW target lock on my Deathrain team not to allow me to target two units per turn but more for the option if the need arises, I also have the superior BS and twin linking which massively ups the likelihood of each seperate DR damaging say a transport over the single MP on the Fireknife in your team.
    So I have two suits each very efficient at what they do, I can concentrate their fire effectively or split it if the need arises but each is still more efficient than your Fireknife.

    To me having one Fireknife targeting a unit of MEQs is not going to accomplish much, ok sometimes it may take down 3 or 4 models (but most of the time its 1 or 2), to me it makes more sense to do a Blue said and have dedicated teams, the Deathrains are not MEQ killers as such, they are more anti armour and are great at providing long range concentrated accurate fire, fireknives are more your get reasonably close and take targets of opportunity type unit, if your going MEQ hunting with a two man team you do need 2 Plasma and the MP's with multi's because you need to maximise firepower if your going MEQ type hunting.

    Do not get me wrong I am not saying your configuration sucks, not by any means, if you like it that way and it works for you then thats great, however I firmly believe that the mixing of roles/weapons in XV8 teams is never as efficient as using dedicated teams/Monats, but efficiency is not the be all and end all of the game, fun is also important and if you have a good time using em then do it.

    Also the other reason I love the DR team is its cheapness and effectiveness to points ratio and the fact it gives me those few extra points to improve other units.
    1984

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    i think your mixed team can be good in SMALL point games like under 750. in smaller games sometimes what wins is not efficency but versitiality. also in thoes games you might not be able to bring BOTH a death rain squad and a helios squad due to lack of points

    having said that, this combo should really only be used if and only if, all your elite/HQ slots are full because if they arent you should just bring a monat FK and a monat DR rather than doing a mixed squad.
    Last edited by dragon252; April 23rd, 2007 at 19:19.

  6. #5
    Senior Member ZenGamer's Avatar
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    An excellent counterpoint Riki.

    You are right that in an ideal game the Fireknives would never get to fire their plasma, but I don't think I have ever seen an ideal game. With the Deathrain teams, I find that when things get close they have to rely on other units to move in and protect them. This is not a bad thing as every unit needs other units to support them. But the mixed team can be more versatile without the added cost of more plasma than you might need.

    That being said, I don't even always use a mixed team - it all depends on my mood. It can be inefficient except in the right situations, and those situations don't always arise. I wanted this thread to be a discussion of the pros and cons of both ways of doing it and so far it has been.
    -Thread Killer Bryan
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    T'au Empire, Bork'an Sept

  7. #6
    Senior Member xsickpeoplex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleBlueMan View Post
    You should go for a team of death rains and a team of fireknifes, then you can "have your cake and eat it too".

    This has been fairly well decided/argued/articulated here.

    I have to say that over the past 4 or 5 games ive started to use a deathrains team of 2 nd a fireknife team of two with a monat 'O HQ (can't beat hitting on a 2+!!!).

    deathrains are great. they get their points back and way more and having the twin linking has meant that they have been hitting at around 80%. they are a bit poor against MEQ as i found last night. but the more saves you force them to make the more chance there is to fail.

    i prefer that to mixing my suit load outs together. i find I get a bit too unsure what its supposed to be doing! i'd rather leave my deathrains sat behind a nice bit of cover jumping over and hitting their targets the going back while the fireknives are advancing using their MP's to force saves whittle down MEQ until they get into range to hit them with PR's then they can either jump backwards out of range or move onto a new target. nice. seems to have worked so far.

    last night i also found out that plasma rifles are the dogs nadger's for taking out termies. i had a field day on my mates grey knights. i couldn't really engage them with my broadsides and HH's (rail and Ion) due to that shroud power they have. so in jumped the fireknives and rapid fired them. nice to get rid of that 2+ save and watch him squirm trying to make a 5+ inv save!!
    a squad of firewarriors took down 2 grey knights in one turn too with rapid fire. i had to laugh!
    Last edited by xsickpeoplex; April 23rd, 2007 at 19:35.

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    Between the pts of 1750-1850 I like running two fire knife teams and 1 team of burst/plasma/multi. On all teams I run with sheild drones because of the teams point cost(+ could always use exstra wounds) and a Fire Knife Shas'el w/ ta and a helios Shas'o with stims,vtrt. I run against a lot of MeQs and some of them use drop pods very comp. list and found this combo always is in max effective range for all my suits. Coupled with mobility makes this combo a viable
    Last edited by 1st_Pariah; April 23rd, 2007 at 23:53.

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    Between the pts of 1750-1850 I like running two fire knife teams and 1 team of burst/plasma/multi. On all teams I run with sheild drones because of the teams point cost(+ could always use exstra wounds) and a Fire Knife Shas'el w/ ta and a helios Shas'o with stims,vtrt. I run against a lot of MeQs and some of them use drop pods very comp. list and found this combo always is in max effective range for all my suits. Coupled with mobility makes this combo viable

  10. #9
    LO Zealot hero's Avatar
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    i personaly don't like mixing teams as it gives them a less focused role. Also deathrains have aa 88% chance of missing a shot.

  11. #10
    The deep down truth Rikimaru's Avatar
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    724 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by hero View Post
    i personaly don't like mixing teams as it gives them a less focused role. Also deathrains have aa 88% chance of missing a shot.
    Heh I hope you meant 88% chance of hitting, or people will be dropping Deathrains like hot cakes if they only have a 22% chance of hitting, but yeah I don't like the unfocused nature of the mixed team. I tend to be pretty specific about the roles my units play, such as my Helios multi Shas'El and drone squad they are my transport hunters first but will take on other targets obviously, but first and foremost their role is as transport stoppers.

    Zen I know what you mean about units getting close, this is why I never take 3 man teams of XV8's and is why I actually prefer Monats but the DR is cheap enough to chance a two man team.

    I try to counter this by deploying behind any size2 or 3 cover I can and using the jump shoot jump move to get behind the cover, this at least slows units down, the other thing I always try to do is keep them at maximum range (36" weapon range plus the 6" jump move for 42") obviously this is not always possible but I do find it pretty easy to keep out to 24" to 30" with the XV8's movement (I play 90% of my games on 6X4 tables though which helps)
    1984

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