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Thread: Fire Dragons?

  1. #1
    Member Asurmen's Avatar
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    Fire Dragons?

    What shall I use Aginst heavey armourd troops like terminators. I read on Games Work shops homepage that I should use Fire dragons What do you say?


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    Senior Member dymew's Avatar
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    Personally I say no, due to the fact that even with a full dragon squad, you're only going to kill 3-4 Termies on average. This dragon squad will now be in full view of your opponent and will most likely get shot to death by heavy bolters and assault cannons, assuming that the termies that you've shot at don't kill them first with return fire.

    IMO, fire dragons are most effective in a squad of 6 in a falcon and even then it's wasting the falcon's capacity as a heavy tank.

    As to what to bring against terminators, I'd say a full banshee squad with a farseer and doom, either that or starcannon/pulse laser falcons, but the latter strat has fallen out of favor amongst the eldar community.
    Dreams give us a vision of a world unlike any we have seen. They present us with a glimpse of a better life; a goal to aspire to, and in the face of insurmountable odds, they provide us with the power to overcome, to live on, and to succeed where we would have otherwise failed.

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    Senior Member $ick's Avatar
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    Now I'm afraid I have to disagree,

    A full squad of 10 (which only costs 160pts) mounted in a waveserpent should do fine. Now I know people might say this is expensive, but your only spending 160 on the dragons. The serpent is a decent reliable tank with nice weaponry so it's not actually that expensive for what you are getting.

    Now, your whole squad will not be wasted if you are carefull with them, try and issolate the termies then take them out when possible. If it is not possible to try picking them off with heavy weapons fire.

    Also, have you considered banshees, 9 in a serpent with a farseer will do well, this however will be expensive. Of course, you don't need the farseer to much as the exarch is quite strong.

    And just for the record (again) fire dragons are not most effective in a falcon. Just shoot with the bloody falcon, don't drive up, unload the draons, kill one tank, get shot to bits, drive away.

    Instead hang back, hunt rear armour, kill that one tank, drive away. See, no dead dragons.

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    Senior Member dymew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by $ick View Post
    Now, your whole squad will not be wasted if you are carefull with them, try and issolate the termies then take them out when possible. If it is not possible to try picking them off with heavy weapons fire.
    No they may not be wasted but how often can you shoot a squad of terminators without ANY retalitation from your opponent? Most space marine players will have his/her termies supported by the other squads. And if you don't find the perfect opportunity to deploy your dragons, you've essentially wasted your points unless you're willing to lose them.

    Quote Originally Posted by $ick View Post
    And just for the record (again) fire dragons are not most effective in a falcon. Just shoot with the bloody falcon, don't drive up, unload the draons, kill one tank, get shot to bits, drive away.
    Instead hang back, hunt rear armour, kill that one tank, drive away. See, no dead dragons.
    So what then is the most effective way to run dragons? You can't footslog them since their range is pitiful. In order to be effective, they've gotta be very close to whatever they're shooting at. They don't have the volume of fire needed to take out squads numbering greater than 7 and don't have the survivalbility needed to survive the retalitory fire/assault. So how do you make back the points you spend on the dragons? Well since the entire squad is armed with melta weapons, one would assume that if you destroy a tank then they have a good chance of making back the points. But again, the short range of their weapons means that they need to be very close. This need to be up close combined with their lack of survivalbility means that you need to transport them in something. So then given all this, your choices are either 10 in a serpent or 6 in a falcon. A falcon is 4 times more survivalble than a waveserpent so why would you not take a cheaper squad in a more durable transport?
    Dreams give us a vision of a world unlike any we have seen. They present us with a glimpse of a better life; a goal to aspire to, and in the face of insurmountable odds, they provide us with the power to overcome, to live on, and to succeed where we would have otherwise failed.

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    I think a lot of us just need to agree to disagree on the falcons w dragons. Me I like them. In theory what I'd do against terminators is use a combined attack from my dragons and spears to wipe them all out before they can use their slow weaponry. It should work.

    In practice what I find is that typically termies are moving out in the front in order to best use their asscannons. Termies will make twice the saves as their regular bretheren, but cost over twice the points. This means that targeting them with your save giving attacks (DA's ) is, while not that great, still better than shooting regular mariens with them.

    I won't say that DAs are the best way to kill termies. It's just that I happen to have a lot of them (converted from ulthwe black guardians), and I have a farseer that dooms. So as often as not it'll be my 30+ da's and the farseer facing off against a roughly equal pointed squad of termies maybe with an HQ.

    The 30 da's will fire hitting 40 times wounding 30(doom) and killing 5. Since my squads are broken up into five man teams return fire from the termies can at most kill one squad. So next turn I still have enough guys to finish them off.

    This lets my dragons go after that land raider and my spears take on a devestator squad in the backfield.

    Trick with that is if the termies deep strike and you can't bring the forces you have to bear on them easily. Though in those cases sometimes you can just play keepaway for a while.

    I've run into fewer termies than I would expect in 4th ed.

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    Senior Member $ick's Avatar
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    Too often is the mis-conception of 'This unit must make its points back' said by players.

    They don't need to make their points back in order to screw up ur enemy's battle plans. The best set up for them I feel is 10 in a serpent. Think about it, what can you do with 10 melta guns!?

    I could melt that carnifex running at my scorpions, I could wipe out them bloody obliterators, I could bring that command squad to its knees in one turn of shooting, I could take out a whole squad of termies, I could rape a squad of incubi, I could fry a chaos lord or daemon prince, I could even inflict fatal damage on a greater daemon. While this is happening I'll have my scorpions holding up their front line, my falcons and spiders harrasing the flanks, my guardians and avengers marching relentlesly up the middle of the board, my reapers unloading all they have and my farseer hunting tanks/generals and generally being a pest.

    Normally I dont send my dragons after big squads, thats just silly. They are they pride of my army, the elite. My opponent is also going to have his elite that he will also rely on. The thing is that mine is mobile and in most cases heavier hitting than his.

    Don't see them as a suicide unit that has to make their points back then die, see them as a very mobile, very real threat to your opponent. Most time he will try his best to take them out, if this is the case then so be it, I'll let the rest of my army get on with it and let him worry about one unit.

    As with everything in the Eldar army, don't put to much faith in one squad cos you will only be dissapointed with the results. They work as one. So use them that way.

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    Senior Member dymew's Avatar
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    Hmm to each his own I suppose. I agree that a group of 10 meltaguns will make anything nervous.

    I definately agree that you can't put too much faith in any one unit, since the eldar army works better when each unit is supported by the others.
    Dreams give us a vision of a world unlike any we have seen. They present us with a glimpse of a better life; a goal to aspire to, and in the face of insurmountable odds, they provide us with the power to overcome, to live on, and to succeed where we would have otherwise failed.

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    To help the OP I'll elaborate on that "help from other units" thing.

    In this case that generally means, as much as possible, having another unit do something so the dragons don't get charged/mowed down by heavy bolter fire after they do their thing.

    It also means that your dragons can solve problems for your troops to allow them to do their thing. For example they may be able to pop a +toughness fex that was about to plow into your banshies, which might not be able to hurt the fex at all. The banshies could then hit some genestealers backed up by some doom, and they will do much better(and will also keep the stealers off the dragons).

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    Game Over boys macewind's Avatar
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    I hate to say this, but as much as i love the fire dragons, ill probably never use them. The eldar force has plenty of anti-tank thats cheaper/safer to play. The poor dragons just arnt needed!

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    I'd vote for the Falcon and Fire Dragon combo if you intend on using them. A Falcon with a Starcannon and Shuriken Cannon is quite good against heavy infantry. Should the terminators decide to foot slog it then you've the chance to harrase them abit with range the swoop down at close range and finish them off with the combined effort of both the Falcon and Fire Dragons. A squad of 6 fire dragons isn't all that expensive, and if anything it enables you to drop another scoring unit on an objective near the end of the game.

    Personally I have rotten luck with Brightlances so Fire Dragons are quite well suited to me. Thats not to say I'm without other weapons though. There are plenty of other options to take against terminators, D-cannons, Wraithlords, Warwalkers etc. Just be wary that a squad of Termies can deep strike and are often done so for a surprise attack. In this case a full squad of Fire Dragons on foot is at a disadvantage. If you're unlucky, a squad may pop your wave serpent and you could end up entangled....giving the termies all the time they need to walk up and finish them off.

    Personally, I would employ multiple units with anti-heavy infantry weaponary. This way you arn't stuck with only one unit dedicated to the job and you're allowed a wider coverage of the table so there's a higher chance of something being able to counter deep strikers the following turn they show up. Also note relying on a single squad to do the only job in your army can lead to you being neutered should they be taken out of action.
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