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Ok well I've used Fuegan for a long time now and he's performed spectacularly every single time. The only time he went wrong is rolling 3 1's on a vital difficult terrain test meaning he couldn't charge the avengers on the objective.
Recently I've been proxying Jain Zar in my armies and I was disgusted. Fuegan always performed well for me but Jain Zar seemed to be focused purely on cc and she didn't even do that better than Fuegan.
So I've taken a look at the maths behind the phoenix lords, no doubt I've made a horrible mistake and one of you people are going to point a a fatal error in my workings. All calculations are worked against MEQ's but it doesn't matter to much. They all ignore saves and most wound on a 2+ anyway.
7 attacks-4.666 hit-3.888 wound
2 shots-1.666 hit-0.833 wound-0.277 unsaved
4 attacks-2.666 hit-3.555 really hit-1.777 wound
5 shots-4.166 hit-2.083 wound-0.694 unsaved
4 attacks-2.666 hit-2.222 wound
3 shots-2.5 hit-1.666 dead
4 attacks-2.666 hit-1.333 wound
3 shots-2.5 hit-1.666 wound-0.555 unsaved
4 attacks-2.666 hit-2.222 wound
5 shots-4.166 hit-3.472 wound-1.157 unsaved
0.833 of these shots rend instead
4 attacks-2.666 hit-1.777 wound
1 shot-0.833 hit-0.694 wound-0.810 really wounds
So from this we can see Karandras and Maugan Ra get a massive amount of kills. They also don't cost to much. But now we have to look at the abilities of each.
Well assuming he wants to accompany some avengers a lot of his potentials wasted. Avengers spend most of their time in a serpent. Exarch's can give out his abilities already and they don't need Battle Fate as they have ablative armour. They are also nearly 200 points cheaper for much the same thing. I don't like him. Some time in the near future I plan to take him alone in a falcon to see how that works.
Jesus thats a lot of kills on his behalf! the problem is its initiative 1 with no invulnerable save. He's immune to instant death at least so that should save him. However any squad hes with will make some kills, then your opponent removes those in b2b with Karandras. Again maybe he should be used alone, or accompanying guardians. However an Avatar would be MUCH better for this purpose.
I've actually taken a liking to her now. I tried fielding her with harlequins in a falcon in 1k points to create a death squad but she butchers everything on her own. I'm going to try her out alone in that falcon from now on and if that doesn't work slap in a few banshees. She just doesn't need the help. The big thing is that a LOT of her kills comes from the triskele, she is not predominately a cc character. There is always a risk of killing the only enemies you can reach in the assault phase. However with a bit of care this can be solved. Anything that wants to avoid cc that badly can usually be slaughtered without triskele help.
Baharroth: I hate this guy, he relies a lot on his deep-strike, his abilities don't bring that much to a squad of hawks and he just doesn't kill enough. Don't like him at all, least favourite of the phoenix lords.
I've never actually tried out this guy. He dishes out some impressive kills and 5 shot rending rubs it in the faces of those assault cannons. He doesn't really help dark reapers so going solo among the lines or joining some guardians (or even rangers) could be the way to go. His cc ability is great and his gun is fun, you could try using both him and Asurmen in the same squad (20 guardians /w conceal)! Overall I quite like him, he can do anything, crack shot is useless unless the enemy is in heavy cover (that they actually use).
In my opinion hes by far the best of the phoenix lords. Attach him to a squad of dragons in either a falcon or a serpent. I personally use a serpent /w stones and vectored engines. Then don't tell my opponent which serpent has the phoenix fire squad and which one has the cheap avenger squad (and soon throw another one /w storm guardians into the equation). It then flies up into enemy lines, close to a tank. They all jump out, Fuegan unattaches. Fuegan then shoots the enemy tank and hopefully kills it, if not the dragons will finish it if nothing else will. The dragons then melt a nearby MEQ squad with their guns. Next turn they have to chew through 10 dragons (no need for an exarch unless you really want dragons breath) to get to Fuegan and if they can't kill him he slams into cc (avoid power fists). If they charge the dragons they face a counter-charging Fuegan next turn as he isn't attached. The only downside to this is I lose fearlessness but hey, we can't have everything.
Basically he racks up a decent number of kills, not as much as some others, he can pop a tank well, but his biggest advantage is his abilities are actually useful. Feel No Pain will keep him alive, tank hunters helps the dragons if he doesn't unattach, Crack Shot goes through cover. He will tear apart any enemy he meets and help out his squad on the way. No other Phoenix Lord can do that.
Of course I might be biased because I use Fuegan regularly but the others just seem to be cc monsters. He does so much more.
If anyone wants to disagree with me go ahead.
I have to say though, don't forget about the phoenix lords. I've seen people use Yriel to get a cc HQ and I've seen others lament on how eldar can't get an uber lord. We have the phoenix lords guys and they work wonders. Oddly enough, especially in small games.
Besides, our HQ's can ride the Falcon. Alone if necessary.
interesting analysis LL, I havent used pheonix lords for years (about 2 years ago I use JZ and she was clearly a combat monster then)
from memory about 3 or 4 years ago we ran something close to a poll on pheonix lords and Asuryman came out top, which I think a large part was due to his inv save. on the basis of your stats I would say morganRa looks pretty good as an option and certainly seemed to get good effect with his old rules during EOT, I think generally in the wargaming community he was considered a shooting expert but during EOT it became apparent he was very capable of dishing out in close combat too
Everything you have been told is a lie!
Phoenix Lords have changed heaps since last edition though. They now kill so much more and cost 50% more. Each one is bigger than a khorne prince. Asurmen has gone up by almost 100 points!!!
Interesting tactics with Fuegan. I would like to point out, however, that your opponent should know which serpent is which, due to dire avengers being placed in the Troops phase, Fuegan being placed in the HQ phase, and the Dragons being placed in the Elites phase.
Baharrath's only real use that I can see would be to hold points in a hawk yo-yo list.
Now that I'm seeing this, I'd seriously consider putting Jazar Zain in a falcon with 5 harlies. Dismount, detach, and charge two seperate units.
Last edited by AwesomeX; May 18th, 2007 at 14:50.
My wife has been using Jain Zar alot and she is pretty effective and so far... has made her points back nearly double in every game.
Personally, I think that Maugan Ra gets my pick for best overall PL. He's essentially a walking rending shuri-cannon. And he's IC, so he can do the whole "HAHA You can't shoot me!" thing. And he packs a punch in CC if he needs to.
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I like the math dude but i have to agree with everyone who said Morgan Ra was the best all rounder and value for points.
I would however mention that Baharroth gets a 19" -24" charge and can make some quite spectacular charges and with his hit and run special rules and making his squad fearless he may even survive long enough to get to make another in the following turn.
Jain zar sucks now that everybody can get a possible 18" charge, the only reason to take her is to make banshee fearless, still with 5 power weapon attacks at a high WS and Init value and a very accurate and deadly ranged attack, we cant really grumble now can we :shifty:
Karandras kicks ass, in every way. fearless scorpions with a nice bonus to their cover save. 7 attacks basic 8 attacks on the charge and you dont have to use the PF if you dont need to.
Asurmen, ugly model, ok stats, a bit boring but the re rolls to hit and a leadership test for every unsaved wound against his target or they die and a 4+ inv save, he's...... ok, just !
Fuegan, well hes ok too but he shoots just like his 56 point exarch with all the upgrades so your actualy paying 149 points for his "feel no pain" which will "do no good" agains most people trying to kill him and his Close Combat Tank Busting skills which only works or even hits agains slow moving vehicles if hes lucky and that he or his fire dragon buddies havnt been able to shoot.
To be honest if you have 200+ points sat about doing nothing and you hav'nt already got him i have one word for you ....
Last edited by Caluin; May 19th, 2007 at 04:47.
Yeah but many people don't like using Eldrad in a non-Ulthwe army. Some people make up their own 'counts as' Eldrad but again thats kinda cheating. Phoenix Lords get rid of that doubt.
Fuegans big difference is he can unattach, exarchs can't.
And some good points there AwesomeX. :yes:
Watch it with the stat lines! That was way too much information to be giving out, Darkside.
But, you do bring up a valid point - Lordlink, why are you limiting it to just the Phoenix Lords? Is it just the fluff aspect of using Eldrad or Yriel as well?
Yriel is a beast for his Points. A weapon that wounds nearly every single time and ignores armour saves. It can even function as a ranged weapon, still ignoring armour saves. He can even tank kill. He comes with a nice invulnerable save, and a godly WS and Init value that rivals even Phoenix Lords.
Do you not consider him just because he's attached to Iyanden?
Well I didn't look at them because I'm looking at the phoenix lords.
But yeah generally people look at Yriel as our monster HQ then try to invent ways to fit him into their Biel-Tan army. I've seen a few players lament about how Eldar don't have a monster HQ except Mr. Iyanden.
I also took a look at the phoenix lords because I took Jain Zar in the Vassal campaign and shes been really disappointing. Don't get me wrong shes massacred everything she hit and has been valuable every game but Fuegan helped me a lot. Maugan Ra looks great on paper and Asurmen could tackle people alone in a falcon. From there I took a look at the maths just to make sure the phoenix lords are vaguely equal.