TMC, instant deathed by Force Weapon? - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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    Member Blue Wave's Avatar
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    TMC, instant deathed by Force Weapon?

    I am not sure if this topic has been brought up before, but I was just wondering can a TMC be Instant deathed by a force weapon? I have been playing a lot of Grey Knights lately, and his Grandmaster assualted my Hive Tyrant (I unfortunatly Missed 4/5 attackes ( ) and then his grand master wounded my tyrant. He says that because its a force Weapon I am instant deathed regardless of the Tyrand rule of not being able to instantly be killed.

    So I was just wondering, do force weapons Instantly kill TMC?

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    I haven't seen the Force Weapons' special rules, but I do know that when you have to work out whether tyranids in synapse range are killed instantly or not, it depends on whether the weapon's special rule says that it causes "instant death" or not. The wording of the rule has to explicitly say "instant death" in order for the exemption to apply; if it uses other wording, like "kills the model instantly" or "reduces the model to 0 Wounds" then we aren't exempt. For example Eldar Wraithcannons, which cause "Instant Death", can't instantly kill Tyranids in synapse range.

    This is made clear by the current Tyranid FAQ which you can get from GW's websites.

    I have a feeling Force Weapons might fall under the category of weapons that kill outright without causing instant death, so I think your friend was correct.

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    Member ascendedjesse's Avatar
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    Force weapons do kill outright, as well as plague swords. Because of how they are worded they do not cause instant death.

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    durus Diggums Hammer's Avatar
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    The wording is rather important, but really without force weapons, what chance would the poor Grey Knights have against your big bugs???????

    After all we can't take cans of RAID, LOL!!!!
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    To put it simply, force weapons do kill MCs outright if they aren't under synapse. This has been asked several times. The consensus is that because the force weapon doesn't make use of the Instant Death rule, it isn't protected by synapse, which per the FAQ, protects against the Instant Death rule.


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    Well, first, he'd have to pass a psychic test before he can go Lol Zomg, ur ded!

    There's two schools of thought on this subject.

    One is the absolute RAW one where since it doesn't say it causes instant death, then tyranids are affected by force weapons. This, however, opens the door for gaunts (or whatever) not taking extra wounds for being outnumbered and losing combat since they're not fearless and synapse does not make them fearless (its like fearlessness, but then again, force weapons are like instant death).

    The other is that if the rules are the same thing, it has the same effect. This means that, no, force weapons wouldn't kill a tyrant, but gaunts (or whatever) would take wounds from being outnumbered and losing combat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atma View Post
    Well, first, he'd have to pass a psychic test before he can go Lol Zomg, ur ded!

    There's two schools of thought on this subject.

    One is the absolute RAW one where since it doesn't say it causes instant death, then tyranids are affected by force weapons. This, however, opens the door for gaunts (or whatever) not taking extra wounds for being outnumbered and losing combat since they're not fearless and synapse does not make them fearless (its like fearlessness, but then again, force weapons are like instant death).

    The other is that if the rules are the same thing, it has the same effect. This means that, no, force weapons wouldn't kill a tyrant, but gaunts (or whatever) would take wounds from being outnumbered and losing combat.

    Actually I feel they are different entirley and that you can't lump those things together.

    There's a little bit more to the No Retreat rule then just Fearless. Specifically "...Fearless, subject to a vow, a walker, or be affected by some other special rule." (BGB pg 4. Syanpse is a special rule that causes models not to fall back, therefore they fall under the No Retreat rule.

    I do not see how allowing force weapons to kill out right negates the No Retreat rule. Perhaps you could word your argument better.
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    Advocatus Diaboli Rork's Avatar
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    TMCs under synapse can be killed outright by the force weapon - it never references the instant death rule (which as we know, is a specific rule), so is never invoked by the force weapon.

    And as magnet man points out on the No Retreat! issue - gaunts still suffer hits since the No Retreat! rule applies to any unit that will not run from combat for any reason.


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    Quote Originally Posted by magnet_man View Post
    Actually I feel they are different entirley and that you can't lump those things together.

    There's a little bit more to the No Retreat rule then just Fearless. Specifically "...Fearless, subject to a vow, a walker, or be affected by some other special rule." (BGB pg 4. Syanpse is a special rule that causes models not to fall back, therefore they fall under the No Retreat rule.

    I do not see how allowing force weapons to kill out right negates the No Retreat rule. Perhaps you could word your argument better.

    Synapse makes all tyranid creatures pass automatically the leadership test when they lost in CC, my point of view is like you have throw the dices and you got two 1s. As you have pased the leadership test u don't need to use the no retreat rule. Winning a combat causes models not to fall back too....

    PD:There is a 99% of chance of being wrong cuz i dont have the codex here
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    Senior Member Abraham Lincoln's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mente enjambre View Post
    Synapse makes all tyranid creatures pass automatically the leadership test when they lost in CC, my point of view is like you have throw the dices and you got two 1s. As you have pased the leadership test u don't need to use the no retreat rule. Winning a combat causes models not to fall back too....

    PD:There is a 99% of chance of being wrong cuz i dont have the codex here
    Yes, but that is pretty much the same wording of the Fearless rule, too - the model is assumed to have passed any morale check it needs to take. So, our synapse rule would still be classified as "some other rule that does the same thing as fearlessness", for the same of the No Retreat rule.

    As for FW's and Instand Death, I used to be opposed to the idea of Force Weapons being able to "kill outright", just because the concept is in a major conflict with the whole fluff of the Synapse rule - Tyranids are so pumped up with the power of their psychic connection to the Hive Mind that they sustain horrific wounds... except for some psychic weapon, which is apparently stronger than the collective consciousness of the entre Tyranid species! :w00t:

    But now I think I was in denial, because from a raw perspective, it does make sense. Like everyone said, we are only immune to weapons that specifically use the phrase "Instant Death" in their rules. The force weapon "kills outright"... so, we're not immune.
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