Some questions (manily about DR and Guardians) - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
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    Some questions (manily about DR and Guardians)

    Hello, I've read the forums for a couple of days now and I've gotta ask some questions as they've been bugging me..
    I haven't played with the new rules yet and I used to play with an Ülthwe setup dominated by a seer council and guardians and almost always a group of dark reapers to back them up. >40 Guardians in an 1500p army wasn't unusual... Now, to the point.
    I understand that not having a seer council anymore will make it harder for a group of 20 Guardians to survive without a Fortune and without the BS4 they used to have, but I find it hard to believe that they suck that much. I love to use them as meat walls..
    And it seems like almost none of you uses Dark reapers.. Why not?
    The tempest launcher with crack shot on the exarch seems like a nice combo against necrons or space marines, is the 36 inches the issue? Or go without an exarch and just have 4 DR standing there killing most of the things that are in the way... 4 DR costs you 140p, and say that you take down 10 Tac Marines in the whole game (which rather sums up to the double with a tiny bit of luck) then you've justivfied the DR's precence on the board.

    And a couple of general questions:
    I almost always threw in the Avatar as it was kinda cheap before.. How is it now? Is it worth the 155p?
    If I get some rangers, is it worth it using them as pathfinders? (I still think they're too expensive though)

    Just so you get an idea of how I used to play (and not to brag, but I lost maybe 1/20 of my games), my roster used to look something like this:

    HQ:
    Avatar & Seer council (which was rather big)

    Elites:
    Striking Scorpions / Howling banshees

    Troops:
    Almost only guardians, two big groups and one small

    Fast attack:
    Swooping hawks (wasn't Sustained assault adoreable... =))
    Jetbikes / Vyper

    Heavy Support:
    Dark reapers
    Wraithlord
    D-cannons / Falcon / Warwalkers

    Something like that... If you're an old Ülthwe player I think you'll get the idea.

    I hope the post isn't too long so you get discouraged. =)
    (and, if you wonder why my grammar is off at times or if I misuse some words -> I'm Swedish =))


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  3. #2
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    Avatar can be nice if you're running a lot of slogging guardians, since it makes them Fearless. That means you can run minimum-sized squads to maximize your heavy weapons and still not worry about them running away. Even with as weak as guardians are, it can be a pain to wipe out every last one.

    The Avatar is also not bad as a tarpit, especially when Fortuned. It can hold up nasty CC squads for quite a while. I've heard very good things about the Eldrad/Avatar/Wraithlord combo in 1.5k lists.

  4. #3
    The Fallen Cheredanine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anjin View Post
    Hello, I've read the forums for a couple of days now and I've gotta ask some questions as they've been bugging me..
    erm, hi
    I haven't played with the new rules yet and I used to play with an Ülthwe setup dominated by a seer council and guardians and almost always a group of dark reapers to back them up. >40 Guardians in an 1500p army wasn't unusual... Now, to the point.
    didnt we all
    I understand that not having a seer council anymore
    erm, seer council = 2 farseers and pack of warlocks, sure the "seer council entry" is missing but you can still create a prety big squad of seers
    will make it harder for a group of 20 Guardians to survive without a Fortune and without the BS4 they used to have, but I find it hard to believe that they suck that much. I love to use them as meat walls..
    you can still cast fortune
    it is not uncommon for ulthwe players to use DA rules for black guardians
    the dont particularly suck any less than they used to, other than black guardians, but other troops choices have got better, notably DA
    meat walls is the domain of the power gamer and about as unfluffy as it gets for eldar
    And it seems like almost none of you uses Dark reapers.. Why not?
    The tempest launcher with crack shot on the exarch seems like a nice combo against necrons or space marines, is the 36 inches the issue? Or go without an exarch and just have 4 DR standing there killing most of the things that are in the way... 4 DR costs you 140p, and say that you take down 10 Tac Marines in the whole game (which rather sums up to the double with a tiny bit of luck) then you've justivfied the DR's precence on the board.
    there are plenty of players who use DR, my son amongst them, the issue with DR is whilst they are consumate MEQ slayers, most MEQ players are aware of this and have developed stratergies to deal with them, at those [points, it will take each DR 3 turns to recover his pointts value, most MEQ players will target them fast and take them down fast, now that doesnt mean dont use them, they are consumate MEQ killers, and even if they do get target fast, that is drawing fire off other stuff
    personnaly I dont use them for 3 reasons:
    1. my ulthwe havent seen light of day for 5 or so years
    2. they do not fit with the theme of my current aldar armies and so do not complement them
    3. I can get better value from the points/HS slot
    but that is just the nature of my own armies, as I said there are players using them
    And a couple of general questions:
    I almost always threw in the Avatar as it was kinda cheap before.. How is it now? Is it worth the 155p?
    it is powerfull, looking at your list, in the absence of any tanks, it is a poor choice, your opponent is sitting scratching his head, wandering what to point his las cannons at, by putting in an avatar, you give him an easy 155 points. But for lists with tanks/wraithlords etc it is a good choice
    If I get some rangers, is it worth it using them as pathfinders? (I still think they're too expensive though)
    pretty much rangers should always take the pathfinder upgrade
    as to "is it worth it?" well imho they dont kill fast enough, they are very difficult to kill with shooting but an assault army will take them out with minimal shooting casualties, if you know you are facing the obvious sniper rifle targets (TMCs, demon princes etc) they they are a good choice, otherwise I tend not to
    Everything you have been told is a lie!


  5. #4
    Son of LO ze_poodle's Avatar
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    Basically just convert your Guardians to Dire Avengers, paint them black and white and call them Ulthwé Storm Guardians. DA are far more effective now for their cost, and still a Troops choice, so the only real reason to take Guardians is the support platforms.

    It can still be done fluffily, just say "Right, these are Black Guardians, they look like Guardians, but I'm using the rules for Dire Avengers on all of them." Then play the exact same army.
    The above poster = Totally a member of the Fluff Masters Clan. Click here for fluff pwnage.

    Come, sons of LO! Kneel before Poodle!

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    hmm, I don't like beeing accused of power gaming... You have to be able to use the postive aspects of the army without beeing accused for powergaming. Otherwise, thanks for the comments.
    What's a "TMC"? (there are some abbrevations I don't understand yet... e.g. GEQ)

    But what about the Tempest Lanucher? anyone?

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    Senior Member Fuzzy Wumpus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anjin View Post
    hmm, I don't like beeing accused of power gaming... You have to be able to use the postive aspects of the army without beeing accused for powergaming. Otherwise, thanks for the comments.
    What's a "TMC"? (there are some abbrevations I don't understand yet... e.g. GEQ)

    But what about the Tempest Lanucher? anyone?


    Power gaming? I assume you're referring to using dire avengers as black guardians,yes? If so,there's nothing wrong with it at all. Rules-wise,all you're doing is using dire avengers. Calling them "Black Guardians" just helps fluff-wise. No problems with calling something by a different name.

    By the way,TMC=Tyranid Monstrous Creature. Carnifexes,Hive Tyrants,etc. GEQ=Guard equivalent. Basically anything with bad saves and cheap cost. Guardsmen,gaunts,orks,etc.


    The tempest launcher is cool no doubt,and pretty scary. I personally prefer the missile launcher with fast shot,since it keeps with the range of the reaper launchers.

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    Thanks for the explanations!
    I was referring to Cheredanines comment about using guardians as meat walls..

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    Senior Member Fuzzy Wumpus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anjin View Post
    I was referring to Cheredanines comment about using guardians as meat walls..


    Ah. My mistake.


    Yes,that's about as unrealistic a tactic as anything for the Eldar. A dying race has no such thing as "acceptable losses".

  10. #9
    The Fallen Cheredanine's Avatar
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    TMC = Tyranid Monsterous Creatures
    MEQ = Marine equivalents (marines, Chaos marines, necrons etc, stuff all has same T and same Save)
    Eldar = dieing race, loss off single life = very very bad, concept of using their artisans and craftsmen as "meat shield" is completely not doable, therefore on table top is very unfluffy, as you point out you are doing it for effect (game mechanics) rather than because it is the eldar thing to do = realyl a bsiac definition of power gaming, sorry and all, but way it is
    Everything you have been told is a lie!


  11. #10
    Junior Member Darkside101's Avatar
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    The main reason DR's are so bad nowadays is simply that any vehicle or squad that passes a Ld test can target them past or thru a closer unit so they simply dont last very long.

    As for seer coucil it doesnt exist any more and the best you can do is take 2 farseers and 20 warlocks and at 350 points for about 10 tooled up warlocks and 150 pionts for a good farseer thats a HUGE 500-1000 chunk off your army and simple doesnt leave you enough to feild an effective army

    the meat shield is very un-eldar it always was and it always will be, i often found that if i didnt take guardians then i could keep most if not all of my army in or behind cover and gave my opposition nothing to shoot at for most of the game

    War walkers and fire prisms and v cannon are all still pretty good tho and are a must in a balanced eldar army, imho

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