Welcome to Librarium Online!
Well, I'll toss out some stipulations, abide by them or not in your suggestions.
I'm a former marine player, but that was ages ago, and things like specialized troops and fragility interest me just for variety sake.
Fluff is important to me, but comes second to fun. Winning is not necessarily proponent to fun (if you can build me a fun army that isn't cheese/imbalance spam, I'm all for it.)
To start out, this army will be in a campaign of games of 400 pts for the first round, 800, 1200 and 1600 I believe (don't ask me where they came up with this, I'm just joining). The settings seem to be predominantly city fights.
Ultimately if I enjoy Eldar as much as I suspect is reasonably possible, I'd like to field 3000 pts total, although maybe a bit over if I get conversion or phoenix lord crazy.
Campaign aside, I'd like to build to play 1000/1500/2000 pt games, for the most part.
Before you ask me the defacto questions, I'll clear some out of the way.
What models do I think look cool : Eldar vehicles seem daunting, but the cool factor of Vypers and especially a well-painted Fire Prism is appealing. Ideally I'd like to field a few, maybe a couple vypers, a prism, and eventually maybe two pairs of vypers and 2 prisms for combine fire or something. Remember, fun is the key here. Not like I can't deal with Falcons, seeming as I hear great things, but war walkers...meh...maybe if you can convince me.
Oh, and the new Wraithlord model is nice. I could certainly field some for some melee killing (preferably over ranged)
In terms of Aspects, I like the stats and functionality of Scorpions but they look to me just like they did in 2nd edition. Not so elegant and a bit too brutish. I like Banshees enough to field them, but I realize they might be a bit harder to employ effectively.
Reapers look cool enough, and the prevalence of MEQ makes me want them badly.
Dires and Guards look okay to me, but I really have the desire to field them because I want my army to be fluffy and not simply built to win games. Of course, if you can lay me out an army that's uber fun but lacks guardians, I might not mind.
Swoops and Warpspiders seem like fun, and I wouldn't mind painting either. Strength 6 on ws regardless of ap seems moderately attractive, as opposed to swooping with their weak weapons. On the other hand, I wouldn't mind their grenades on more open maps, and their haywires can't hurt in city fight with all the skimmers going around.
I hear harlies are uber, but painting them doesn't really appeal to me, seriously. If they are needed for whatever type of army I'm going to field though, I'll paint whatever.
Wraithguard seem really cool and underused ( i like those units), and as for bikes and shining spears...I certainly won't enjoy painting them but I like the functionality of bikes and 40k knights a -lot-.l
Firedragons - strike me as a finesse unit and if it can work I'll do it. Fun painting too. On the other hand, looking at the rules, they look like a pointsink and a source of frustration.
Oh, and thumbs up on waveserpent. Looks cool, and I wasn't a big transport fan in my marine days, but mobility seems like a really cool Eldar element.
Ideally, I'm thinking in those earlier small point city fight games, I'll be looking at some guards, some aspect and a vyper or something, all the way up to a prism or falcon, some ws backing up some type of melee troop/waveserpent thing and a backbone of DA/guards with a platform.
I dunno, fast attack and transport appeal to me in spades, but I also don't like playing armies that lack any sort of fluffy realism. Thus, even if it's "weaker" to field some guardians, I'd like to make a realistic Eldar army work, than win all the time with a bajillion falcons and harlies or something. Fast attack though...fun fun...fun overrides all.
I'm a seasoned RTS player, so strategy games are slow to frustrate me. I seriously don't mind losing.
Edit : by Ideally, I mean, I have no idea, but guardians seem fluffy and fast attack vehicles seem fun. That's all.
Last edited by KeithCourage; June 14th, 2007 at 00:46.
Welcome to the eldar.
And a very long intro there mate. Looks like you like everything and unless you've got the money and time you can't have it.
Very important decision you will have to make is how many tanks do I want. 5 or 6 and make it mechanised? none and make it a gunline? 2 or 3 to carry avengers and shoot prism cannons?
The current eldar codex is great because short of spamming harlequins/falcons we can't really make an uber cheesy list. It's also great because we don't have to sacrifice effectiveness to have a fluffy army. This is because our troops are rarely the core of our army and hence we can branch of into whatever areas we want. So eldar armies that spam heavy support or fast attack still aren't considered unfluffy.
So basically to start you off choose which craftworld style you want to play and choose how many tanks you want and work from there. Also take a look at the army list forum and see if someone elses list appeals to you, then make a similar list.
Ah, yes, I am a bit longwinded at times my apologies, but I'm guessing "i'm new build me an army" comes up a lot on forums and wanted to give my particular post some context and flavour.
I totally forgot about (well, I know their names and such) Craftworlds. Unlike when I played marines, I guess swapping tacs for bikes and whirlwinds for landspeeders doesn't quite crossover and make my army a new beast. Picking a Craftworld means my style is somewhat/strongly correlated to my colourscheme and such.
Well, I'll certainly take your advice and read up on the various craftworlds, although at this point I might just go with a colour I like .
Good to hear on the cheese though, I'd heard dreadful things but I guess they were spoken by Emperor's swine .
Hmm, I'm not getting a clear sense of what each craftworld fields from the codex other than saim-hann = bikes.
Biel-tan seem numerous in infantry and...that's about all for specifics.
Alaitoc has a sweet subtitle of starstriders, but the concept of Ulthwé manipulating history and being so meticulous in their ways, draws me to it. I like painting black and highlighting blue/white, and the fire prism looks badass. I'm never been a big magic user as Librarians always stuck me as a bit modular and overly direct. However, no better time I guess than to go with Psykers and a sweet colour scheme...
So I'm Ulthwé then. Hehe. Tell me what this entails please
To not be so flaky, the thorny motif in Biel-Tan scares my lack of art-drawing ability. Saim-hann, while cool, and red, might get in the way of my Blood Angels I plan to play someday. Yriel and sunburst yellow over orange doesn't appeal to me either.
Anyways, back to telling me what I've now brought upon myself. I'm reading lots of guardians but this fire prism is too cool.
For number of tanks, will it severely affect my ability to play different point levels? As I mentioned, I'm likely to be playing games at several intervals between 400-2000 points.
Last edited by KeithCourage; June 14th, 2007 at 02:23.
Nothing wrong with a long post.
You can of course choose any colour scheme you want, I meant just choose which craftworld style you prefer'd.
Ulthwe-tends towards the gunline kind of style. Heavy Support is almost always maxed and guardians are actually used. The main principle is to use war walkers, fire prisms or support weapons to simply blow enemy units to pieces. Guardians back them up with their heavy platforms and pathfinders help too. Occasionally features a serpent full of avengers or falcon full of harlequins/dragons for tank.
Biel-Tan-represents the mechanised eldar army. Falcons and Wave Serpents full of aspect warriors are the core of this army. Vypers, warp spiders (sometimes hawks) and Fire Prisms provide backup. Sometimes the occasional foot-unit appears, like 10 man harlequin squads or some infiltrating scorpions. Mechanised is the really the only way to play an all-out aspect warrior army.
Iyanden-The reason many people hate wraithlords. Iyanden represents the big stuff of the eldar. Farseer (often Eldrad), Avatar, wraithlords, scorpions and harlequins all feature extensively in this list as a heavily armoured core. Guardians or Dire Avengers back them up with some shooting. Surprisingly this army rarely uses wraithguard.
Saim-Hann-Bikes. Usually at least 20, with as many shurikannons in it is as possible. These things usually have little variety as jetbikes, shining spears, vypers, falcons and occasionally wave serpents full of aspect warriors. Surprisingly this is often where wraithguard come in, packed inside wave serpents. Usually this is led by a Jetbike Farseer and/or a Shinging Spear Autarch /w mandiblasters.
Alaitoc-These guys play fairly similar to Ulthwe. Although this craftworld brings out a more defensive style of shooting. Ulthwe is often slightly more mobile shooting with fire prisms and guardians advancing up the field. Alaitoc tends to stay still more often. Taking enough guns to outshoot most enemies. Pathfinders usually sit in cover and shoot up the enemy along with many other shooting units. Another difference to Ulthwe is that Alaitoc features more close combat units. Wraithlords, scorpions, harlequins and the avatar usually feature to protect your gunline. It works on the principle of wearing down the enemy then beating back the remainder of their forces.
Of course there are variations to these. Biel-Tan sometimes takes some shooty units on foot and Saim-Hann occasionally takes heavier units like wraithlords. This is just a guide to the 5 main kind of armies, choose the one you like the most and then alter it to suit you.
The most common army (and the one I play) is Biel-Tan.
Hi mate, just read your nids post and presto you give some info here,
it sounds like you want a skimmer based army, (mechanised) which is fluffy, cos whilst eldar are a dieng race, they are not short on technology
so loads of tanks, all squads with serpents and the odd vyper is fine, it calls into question fluff wise the use of wraithlord as he could not keep up, but tactically it is a good match
This sort of army will not lend its self well to assaulting nids, but can cause prolific damage with drive by and fire power
look to take DA with blade storm as troops
although you could do storm guardians too
Your only real problem is your HQ, avatar has same issues as wraithlord
others are either prohibitively expensive (farseer plus warlocks in serpent) or on foot, whilst they can join units with transports that puts you at the mercy of deployment rules like escalation
Arguably you oul dbike mount although wouldnt recomend with autarchs unless you are taking shining spears, which doesnt seem to fit
So probably best HQ choice is farseer on bike
Everything you have been told is a lie!
farseers on a bike can work wonders as chere said. I have had the best luck with either of the two following builds:
farseer, bike, singing spear, doom, mind war, spirit stones
or substitue fortune for mind war to help keep any accompanying bikers alive. I just like zooming around the board exploding marine sergeant heads!
DA seem to be the troop of choice for just about anyone due to the fact that they can either be uber shooty or a tarpit.
aspect warriors come down to personal preference, some people prefer scorps over banshees, others prefer the opposite.
I tend to find warp spiders more useful than hawks 90% of the time. 5 spiders + exarch w/ power blades, dual spinners, withdraw can be a great multi purpose support unit.
The heavy support choice all depend on army style and preference with walkers and wraith lords for the less mobile forces and prisms and falcons for the more mobile forces.
My advice is to read through the dex 3-4 times and then sit down and go through the FOC and select your two troops plus HQ and go from there.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT!
I survived LO Chat thanks to: Karmoon, Rabbit, Process, Tossy and Meish.
You don't have to paint them with flashy colours, you know... I was also reluctant about Harlequins, due to their painting and colour scheme. Then I thought about a dark and shadowy style instead of the usual flashy one. Now I have a small team of Harlies, painted in a way that is little bit reminiscent of Assassins, or Dark Eldars. I use losange patterns, though, but of dark gold and metal / silver... Their suits are black, with black and blue inks to give them a shiny look...
Apart from the pleasure of painting them with a personal scheme, I never regret fielding them for a game... Yesterday evening they just cut down an uber- Chaos Lord to pieces (well most of them just died doing that, but you could hear them laughing nonetheless ;-) )
Enough about Harlies. You did not mention Rangers / Pathfinders, I think... Why don't you consider them ? Pathfinders can be very interesting, and have a lot of character (both in terms of models, and for gaming : they're so special). I often field a small team of 6, Infiltrating in cover. They can be effective for suppressing. If they're lucky in the first turns, killing two or three enemy models with low AP shots, your opponent gets really nervous about crossing their line of fire. Mind you, they can break easily because their Ld is quite poor...
Anyway, that's just my two bits about Harlies and Pathfinders...
Welcome to the Eldar community. I hope you'll enjoy it as much as I do !
Alright maybe I'll reconsider on harlies.
As for pathfinders, I guess I forgot to mention them. I'm certainly interested in how they perform, and infiltrate/nice cover save seems appealing. How do they fare vs MEQs though? Forgive me, Pinning sounds cool but as a 2nd edition grognard I haven't quite gotten to reading up on what it entails.
I'd have to seriously consider if I would want my Farseer bike-mounted. Something about mounting characters on bikes has never appealed to me. Someone want to go through the benefits?
The idea of Ulthran and re-deploy seems really sweet. As for the rest of the army, it does seem like I enjoy all aspects of Eldar.
I'll probably have to give some more thought to specializing in a theme though. I want fast attack as well as guardians...but if I have to choose I guess I'll be choosing.
Well pinning is not so easy, it depends on the Ld of the target. Almost useless against Chaos SM. Rarely worked for me against SM, except tac units without a VetSgt... Basically I never count on pinning, I just see it as a bonus if it happens...As for pathfinders, I guess I forgot to mention them. I'm certainly interested in how they perform, and infiltrate/nice cover save seems appealing. How do they fare vs MEQs though? Forgive me, Pinning sounds cool but as a 2nd edition grognard I haven't quite gotten to reading up on what it entails.
What's good about the Pathfinders :
- they shoot well !
- they have long range
- they scare the enemy (MEQs) with their random AP
- they're very resilient against incoming shots when in cover
- they can relocate quickly since they ignore difficult terrain, and have fleet
- infiltrating + scout move, can be a nice surprise to your enemy (they tend to forget about the scout move...)
What's bad :
- if they're assaulted, they die quickly
- same if they come under a nice flamer template
- low Ld; they tend to cut and run quickly...
- obviously, their rifle has limited fire power and prevents them from moving : heavy 1...OK...I'd have to seriously consider if I would want my Farseer bike-mounted. Something about mounting characters on bikes has never appealed to me. Someone want to go through the benefits?
- Ability to move quickly around the battleground... Go where he's needed...
- MEQ-level save, on top of the bike added Toughness bonus
- Turbo-boost and get that nice MEQ-level save getting invulnerable
- Eldar Jetbike "free assault move"
- give him a Singing Spear (such a low point cost!) and give him the chance to kill a tank (well, just having your opponent worry about it is already interesting...)
- jetbike is the way to make your Farseer mobile AND able to cast his powers each turn; the alternative way, being in a Serpent / Falcon, means you cannot cast the powers during the turns he's inside the transport (this is a crucial point!)
Now for the drawbacks :
... hey, guys, can you help me on the drawbacks, I can't see any !!?
oh, well, point cost of the bike, maybe, and the need to have other bikes so your Farseer does not feel too lonely.It does. I have not painted the model yet, he's part of my backlog. Also consider that he has no risk of being insta-killed to the Perils of the Warp, due to his higher T than the regular Farseer. (I am developing a habit of losing a Farseer - or two !!! - in each game to the Perils... ). But he's really costly. I do not like to put so many points in a single model...The idea of Ulthran and re-deploy seems really sweet.Have Shining Spears been discussed already ? I don't have them yet, but many gamers here recommend them.I'll probably have to give some more thought to specializing in a theme though. I want fast attack as well as guardians...but if I have to choose I guess I'll be choosing.
Oh, while I was researching and such I recalled a lot of vehicle-heavy lists being fielded. How would I go about dealing with those effectively? Firedragons strike me as cool, but as i said, getting them to work seems like hell.
Would I be relying solely on vehicles to counter his vehicles? Supposing I face, say, 3 dreads in a city fight, what are my best options?