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I've started collecting tyranids, but I'm wondering if I'm collecting the wrong army.
I'd really want an army that will get in the opponents face really fast, and then rip him apart no matter what he fields.
Tyranids has some units that deployment options that does this, but I'm afraid they become too expensive and fragile and "slow" to acually be fieldable.
I want to use cover to deny my enemy his shooting, and then be fast enough to engage him before I'm shot to bits afterall.
The army would at 500 pts consist of..
- a Hive Tyrant with wings.
It would move 12" and charge 6" with no shooting.
- Ravener broods (up to 6 models at this pt range)
They move 7-12" and charge 12" with no shooting. They are good in cc. They have wounds but they are otherwise extremely fragile.
-possably a brood of 3 warriors with wings (at the cost of 3-4 raveners)
They move 12" and charge 6".
That's about it.. :p
16 effective wounds, most with low armour.
Now, the strategy I envision sounds alot to me what dark eldar players use. What I'm wondering is, how much better would dark eldar be at this kind of play?
Obviously, while DE also have low Armour, they have alot more models who all keep up with this kind of play. How much more speed does DE have? Tyranid Raveners charge at 19-24", how much further will a fast DE army make a charge in one round?
What defence mechanisms does DE have besides distance and cover?
How much better are DE wyches in cc than tyranid raveners are?
I guess I'm demanding alot, since most of you probably don't play tyranids, but to those of you who "know their enemy", I would appriciate a comparison to this one.
The reason I'm having a dilemma, is that I don't really like the swarm style of play..
That army you just showed me is really not balanced, nids rely heavily on gaunts, without them they are even more fragile.
Two different armies completely.
I fight nids alot so i have alot experience with both armies.
DE rely just as much at shooting as they do HTH. (Some of the best guns in the game, lances, blasters and disintegrators)
speed is our armour, something we have quite in common with nids.
however nids do it with overwhelming numbers unlike DE.
We use raiders, bikes, fleet of foot and WWP(web way portal) for our speed.
We are faster than nids, the fastest army in 40k might i add, though just as fragile as nids.
With our choice of wargear and the best elite unit in the game (wyches) i would rank DE better in HTH, however you should still remember an important fact, nids have big numbers.
Our lords are the best HTH lords in the game, Wyche lord being the best, to put it bluntly if a hive tyrant gets to strike back after a lord charge hes doing pretty well.
But rather than going into which is better debate, i'll answer your question about speed.
We use raiders and we have FOF on warriors and wyches therefore you can move like this.
FoF possible 6"
You can gain an extra 2" by being sneaky with your raider turning it on its side, though this is debatable as you still have moved an extra 2" over your movement, however it also states in the rulebook you can swivel it anyway you like after its moved, sooo i'll leave that up to yourself to decide on.
I claim with my mates that i can and they agree so thats a possible 28" movement first turn if you can make the charge.
K wyches are different as sometimes you can get the 12" assualt drug for them meaning a possible 34" movement on the charge (yeah we can get first turn charge)
warpbeasts can move up to 24" (FOF 6" and charge 12")
reavers can turbo 24" and get a 2nd turn charge, they can't charge first turn while doing this.
Using WWP first turn you can get the webway 12" -14", deploy it 2nd turn using a raider or footslogging warriors who FOF, This means on 3rd turn all the units protected within the portal can now come out move and charge after you have checked for reserves(3+ reserve roll at this stage)
so adding this movement to the movement described above you pretty much have free range to get into any of his units with yours.
hope this clears it up
Last edited by dizzie; July 20th, 2007 at 19:57. Reason: wrong movement stats
If you're always worried about crushing the ants beneath you...you won't be able to walk.
You are entierly correct that the army list I showed in my previous post is an extremely inefficient one. But that was kind of the reason for me posting here. Tyranids don't play like I wanna play, while being effective at the same time.
I wanted to mention the difficulty of collecting models just to make sure it doesnt hinder. In the US, dark eldar are not sold in stores so you would have to buy them on ebay or other sites. I dont want to scare away a potential new dark eldar player but I think the warning is just.
About the topic though, dark eldar definitely requires more strategy then say a tyranid swarm army. If you dont think that either of these sound like your type of army, then orks are another close combat orientated force, although the new codex for orks is coming at the beginning of next year so I would suggest waiting.
Armies: Dark Eldar, Ogre Kingdoms, Beasts of Chaos, Orcs & Goblins, Warriors of Chaos
Past Armies: Dwarfs, Mortal Chaos, Imperial Guard, Space Marine
well if thats what you want then DE is for you.
I will add this, our 2nd edition codex doesn't blend well with 4th edition rules and it is IMO an unbalanced army at the mo.
however we should see a codex not too far in the future according to rumour's which is next year.
If you're always worried about crushing the ants beneath you...you won't be able to walk.
To be honest the DE models look like shit, so I'd be looking at doing some heavy converting regardless.
As it stands most of the tyranid models also look rather less cool, imo, so I will be making liberal use of greenstuff and bits whatever I choose.
Still, waiting until a new DE codex (hopefully with some new models) is produced seems prudent.
Still, I think probably should wait for the new stuff before I try them out.
Thanks for the input anyway. Have to do some thinking, it seems.
Mandrakes can, if you so choose, not be shot or attacked in ANY way right until the end of the 3rd turn.What defence mechanisms does DE have besides distance and cover?
Grotesques have an excellent rule that protects them from most shooting.
Taloi have a great Armour Save and are very, very, very tough.
ALL Wyches have a good invulnerable save in CC. And no save otherwise...
Reaver jetbikes' Armour save becomes an Invulnerable save when they turbo-boost. With their good Armour save, Haemonculae on Jetbikes can be hard for the enemy to kill off, for this reason- particularly if they're accompanied.
Skyboards have a decent invulnerable 'jink' save against shooting.
One Lord (or Lady) can have a Shadow Field. That's the best Invulnerable save in 40K, but alas, it's gone once it's failed once.
OH- and lest I forget, the finest defensive wargear IN THE GAME- WEBWAY PORTALS! Know them, love them. They are any Archon's best friend, particularly when you get to playing 1500+ point games or more.
I'm sure I'm missing some here...
Did someone say defense?
Seriously DE don't defend at all, they are an attacking army and excel at it and why would you want to defend when you can wipe the board clean of the enemy when your tactics go right?
Witness the "Slave Raid" scenario on page 43 in the Codex - they move in quickly, capture some prisoners and get the heck outta there before defending reserves show up.
This the style of play one must adopt when playing DE, move , shoot , assault with the emphasis on move.
The other thing in our favour is our magnificent wargear, case in point - the Agoniser and the Dark Lance - both cheap and extremely effective and when you consider that you can take 2 lance weapons per squad why on earth would you want to defend anyway, its much more fun having a go at the enemy.
In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.
I started 40K with Tyranids a couple of years ago. I'm currently constructing a Dark Eldar force as my second list.
Tyranids are fast. A second-turn assault is something you can just about rely on, with enough terrifying gribblies to tear apart any infantry list. As an army the nids own close combat. I have enjoyed several times a quartet of genestealers or a pair of raveners impact at one end of a line of space marines, and chew their way through to the other end.
Tyranid monstrous creatures (TMCs) are some of the best units in the game: powerful, durable, psychologically imposing, and useful for cover for lesser units. A 'Nidzilla' list - maxed out on TMCs - can be very hard to defeat indeed. If you're looking for a non-swarm nid list, the nidzilla might be for you. It's not fast, though.
Tyranid shooting is supposed to be bad, but I think they're better than most people think. They certainly lack effective anti-armour, but a shooty Tyranid swarm can put out a huge number of shots, many of which will reroll to-wound, or will have other special effects like pinning. They get large blast templates on a weapon that even Tyranid warriors can carry - theoretically, a nid force could have 8 of these...
These things being said, from what I have seen of the Dark Eldar, they are even faster, they have a small selection of units that are supreme in close combat (a tooled Archon/Archite, or Drachon + Incubi), and they have a selection of very good heavy guns that are also very cheap. My 1500 point list will present something like 8 dark lances, 5 blasters and 6 disintegrators!
Fluff-wise, I like the Nids because they are implacable eating machines. They don't hate or fear; they aren't interested in glory or legendry or anything that the rest of the universe holds dear. I find this sometimes gives me an edge over a fluff-centric player - one who expects me to be intimidated by their 'fluff-storical' army choices. To me, when I am running my nids, the opposition is only one thing: the food.
But this is also the main reason I'm building a Dark Eldar force: because it has room for characters. My little lads and lasses are developing personalities as I build and paint them. In the future 40K campaigns that my group play, I will have room for diplomacy and back-stabbing as I did not with the nids.
Also too, I am told that a DE force takes skill to prevail with. I'm looking forward to developing this skill. But once you master the basics of combining operations between different brood types, the nids are fairly resilient.
Your 500-point list is a good start for a fast nid list (...it's the same as my swarm's core!), but it's not legal right now as it has no troop choices. If you're looking for a non-swarm list, bulk it out with genestealers. The secret of Buddha Nature is 'enough genestealers'...