I think deception and evil and betrayal can work as an advantage. Those who are too weak to sieze power or whatever get quickly rooted out. In chaos, only the strong survive for any length of time and those troops who are still around are resourceful, vicious and crafty enough to stay alive.

World Eaters have pretty much become enslaved by their anger and their rage, likewise, Emperor's Children are enslaved by their basest desires. Thousand Sons are mostly mindless automations, with some power-crazed sorcerors at the helm. Death Guard, well, I don't know much about them, but the point is - The cult armies are very much in the control of the Gods of Chaos and freewill is probably very minimal, if they it exists at all, which makes them excellent troops, excellent pawns.

I think the word "Heroic" implies they are making their sacrifice, of their own free will, for a worthy cause. A slave throwing his life away to serve machinations of an evil god is hardly heroic, although it may look like he's doing something along those lines.

Other factions have other ways of leading, very powerful Lords probably lead and are served through fear, just like any tyrant. If you cross Abbadon, friend or foe, you'll probably die some horrible death or spend your life slaving away somewhere.

I could see some of the other groups, particularly the Alpha Legion, as being composed largely of delusional fanatics, who might very well believe they are serving a good cause, maybe even think they are serving the Emperor himself.

I have actually been considering making a LATD or radical Daemon Hunters army (no GK, but Daemonhosts) sister army to my Emperor's Children, who believe they are serving the Emperor, although they are merely pawns of the EC (who are, in turn, pawns of Slaanesh).

So those are my two-cents.

 

Cool, thanks for that.

Who particularly interest me are Iron warriors and Alpha Legion, who don't seem to be that into Chaos, and are just interested in fighting strong enemies.

I doubt very much that the Alpha Legion think that they're fighting for the emperor, considering they were one of the first legions to join Horus that they might fight some real enemies (imperial marines).

A very good point about sacrificing themselves to the Gods though.

And there is that extract about Abaddon not caring what they served him for, as long as it was fear first.

 

I think that they're actually are "heroic" people in chaos space marines, for example the most (dare i say it) sane and organised legions that i can think of are alpha legion, death guard, word bearers, and even iron warriors.

Because every Chaos space marine thinks that they were betrayed by the Emperor and cast out by they're own society and now they want revenge and in they're minds this is a nobal cause. IMO chaos marines (save a few) aren't particularly "evil" they seek revenge and solace for what was done to them.

take death guard for example they are one of the most organised legions and I can see they're champions and lords looking after the well-being of they're troops for the reason of self-preservation (you can't fight a galaxy-scale war and not make sure that your troops don't die off like flies in the process) and even out of comradship as these "people" have known eachother for a millenia and i think some of them would atleast develop a mutual respect for one another.

Even in the fluff it says that grandfather nurgle takes a "fatherly" approach to his minions caring about them and they're well being, maybe this is passed off to his lords and champions.

About the whole self-sacrifice thing: In the chaos marines mind they are fighting for a noble cause, so whats to stop them from sacrificing themselves for the good of the mission or they're comrades.

I think that chaos has a lot more heroes than you would think its not all back-stabbing and treachery.

PAZ

 

Well, like others have said, I think that it depends on the legion.

For Khorne, I doubt that their warriors are coherent enough to care about someone getting ambushed, etc. I imagine that they would simply attack their ambushers until dead, missions to save other detachments would probably only occur if the troops still desired fresh blood and it was convenient for them. Slanneesh, well, they are very much into the sensations of battle, including pain, though they might warn a squad of an ambush, etc, I think that if someone was about to get hit or something, they probably would not mention it, so that said victim could enjoy a great sensation of pain or something....I imagine that of all legions, acts of heroism are most uncommon in the Thousand Sons. They will willingly sacrifice Rubric Warriors if it means they accomplish the objective. I doubt that the champions and leaders are even close enough to eachother to commit acts of heroism.

As for most of the other legions, I think they look out for eachother. Though on occasion, I would imagine that they allow a competitor to be killed or at least put in harm's way (more than usual anyway). [Will finish later, sorry!]

 

Good thread BTW.

It's already been pointed out that there are a number of chaos legions that could have certain heroic tendencies per say. Now, to expound upon W.B. for the moment, if I recall in 40K history, this legion originally started as a loyalist chapter that desired to form somewhat of a religious cult around the Emperor; but the Emperor would have it, maintaining that he wanted warriors, not priests. Therefore, when this chapter would not accomodate the Emperor's wishes, he expelled them. I can imagine the utter despondancy experienced by this legion, namely, being abandoned (literally) by their god-figure. Similiarly, I could imagine this chapter forming a cultic following around another figure-head in the Eye of Terror that requird not only loyalty, but also self-sacrifice (not the killing kind of sacrifice, but the devotional). Of course, self-sacrifice is not synonymous with heroism, but rather, a particular aspect of heroism. That said, those stoutly devoted chaos marines may very well be willing to sacrifice themselves 'heroically' in the name of their new gods.

 

Out of the 4 cult armies I would say that Death guard is probably the most "heroic". Berserkers are insane, Thousand Sons are mostly automata and Noise Marines are something I'd rather not touch.

 

I'm going to point out a trend that most people are agreeing on.
As a general trend, the undivided legions seem to have the consensus that they are serving for what could be almost considered devotion to the legion and some other cause, which in turn makes them "heroic".

My spin is, that even the DG, which some people mention are "heroic" aren't. They are all devotees of papa nurgle. All have his mark and his "blessings" and all that are left in the legion only act upon the will of the patron.

I think all that have accepted a mark no longer fall under the "heroic" side of things, as they are being directly influenced by a "greater" force.
Now, DG are by fluff very disciplined and well trained, still, not a trait of heroism.

All of the Chaos legions are self-serving first, even the Alpha. But internally, there most likely still remains a commorodery and brotherhood that is passed on through the milennia.

 

I think you have to differentiate between 'heroic' and 'antiheroic' (and of course, 'antiheroic' is a very different thing from 'villainous.')

I don't think there's much room for traditional heroism in chaos. Chaos is fundamentally inhuman and opposed to the laws of human society. Virtues like compassion are meaningless in the eyes of chaos, the strong are rewarded, the weak fall by the wayside on the path to power. That's the way the universe works on the base instinctual level chaos draws its power from.

However, with a few derranged exceptions, most chaos marines are still relatively human in terms of mindset. Indeed, they're actually given far more liberty to develop their own thoughts and personalities than loyalist marines. They serve chaos for the same reasons they originally serve chaos.. because they believe it's the right choice. It may not be kind and nice and human, but it brings untold potential which could never be otherwise unlocked..

So why are they antiheroic.. Well, just because every chaos marine out there is fighting for himself and has no compassion or concern for weakness doesn't mean he's not a powerful champion with incredible abilities bravely fighting for a cause which he believes abseloutely is right.

Besides, it's not like loyalist marines cry when their battle brothers fall for a righteous cause.

 

i guess it realy depends on what you define as 'heroic' if you're thinking about the architype of a knight in shining armor, sacrificing theymself to save the innocent... CSM deffently dont count as this...

but if the definicion is "very imposing or impressive; surpassing the ordinary (especially in size or scale)" then they deffently would qualify. Chaos space marines are some huge imposing and incredibly strong and powerful.

but for the other peoples defficion that they are heoic because they are fighting for a cause they belive in, take intrest in their comrads, and would sacrifice themself i think that there are some legions that would fall into this catagory.

bering a follower of alpha legion i think that there are times that they would deffently be consitered 'heroic'. they were taught and trained in squads, they get to know their comrads and care about their well being. and like Alpharius taught, the legion is more important then the individual, self sacrifice may be consitered necessary for the good of the legion.

word bearers are a different type altogeather. they have total devotion to the chaos gods, they see chaos undivided as being the most important thing. they would sacrifice themself to further the cause of the chaos gods. the individual is seen with a limited importantance.

Iron warriors is a very bitter group. they see themselfs as being wronged by the emperior and that is the cause of their fight. theirs is a war of revenge and vengence more then a war for any cause, for power, or for devotion to a group. i belive they would sacrifice themself if it would cost the imperium. they work with their comrads to destory and undermine the fortresses of mankind.

do any of these realy count as 'heoric'? it realy depends on your perspective... personally i like the picture of alpha legion fighting and sacrificing themself for their comrads and for the alpha legion. a tight group... almost 'band of brothers' type of orgizination. so yes, they could count.

word bearers? deffently a matter of perspective... to fight and die in the name of the chaos gods may not be seen as heroic to most people. but to sacrifice themselfs for the glory of the chaos gods may be heroic. any sacrifice for a cause is always sketchy depending on how you'de see the cause.

iron warriors could even be heroic. fighting a war of atrition againt the imperium. sacrificing themself to slowly destory mankind. they are a bitter and hatefull (i think that says something for a chaos marine) group. but still have a sence of loyality and unity with their brothers.


i think there are aspects of CSM and the different legions that are heroic. it realy depends more on the individual marine more then anything. but to talk about legions as a whole i belive that there are aspects of heroism that they have even if they arnt necessarly 'heroic'

 

Hmmm...I always thought that they death guard were probably one of the most "heroic" legions of chaos due to their organization and their way of warfare I figured that over that many millenia they would have developed a tight comradship with everyone on their company (i know that chaos really don't have companies but I'm just going to call it that). Even in pre-heresy times they were very loyal and followed their primarch religiously. I even converted one of my plague marines to be dragging a wounded one to safety, lol

PAZ

 

Well, based upon organization, then A.L. or N.L. would be just as 'heroic.' Honestly, heroism probably isn't the best word to describe chaos, as others have indicated. However, 'Self-sacrificial' would definitely define certain chaos legions.

 

Digging out my copy of the EC chapter approved article..

When the Emperor's Children converted to Slannesh they were granted a vision of a perfect galaxy where evil or suffering were impossible, because every sensation was welcomed and permitted.

That pretty much explains their behaviour, they don't see anything wrong with doing icky things to people and rendering them down to combat drugs. Everyone gets a good dose of experience and sensory indulgence in the name of Slannesh.. What could be better?

Chaos marines aren't really supposed to be 'evil' for the sake of being evil. They have aspirations and causes and visions they believe in truly and sincerely, those goals and aspirations just happen to be very inhuman and based around the goals and aspirations of immense cosmic extradimensional gods formed from base sentient impulses, rather than the goals and aspirations of poor average Joe who gets repeatedly violated and turned into drugs. ;P

 

With regard to E.C. & Slaanesh, self-indulgence & Epicureanism don't exactly go along with being heroic. While they aren't diametrically opposed, they certainly aren't in the same ballpark.

Your points still stands, that is, indulgence isn't inherently evil, but it could certainly be used to achieve an evil end goal.

 

Ok, I don't know much about the fluff of night lords now, but I know the history. If they still follow night haunter's ideals wouldnt they be the most anti-heroic of all of the legions?

PAZ

 

Anti-heroic, yes, but extremely organized. I made this comment when you first associated the term 'heroic' with 'organization.' I was pointing out that if we're defining heroism by it quality of organization, then there are other legions that are just asheroic (I'm not insinuating that we should indeed define heroism by it's organizational skills).

 

Some chaos legions still carry traditions and noble ways, and so, like in the Lord of the Night Book, even being a chaos Marine doesn't make the Main Character, a Night Lord, to betray his legion. I believe that even the crazyest chaos warrior can understand that there are benefits in fighting along others in order to accomplish something. Therefore, I believe in a small sens of heroism within chaos legions, as opportunistic as it could be. Saving your lord in order to get some privileges, or killing a mighty foe to gain prestige and be admired by you brothers in arm. I could see a selfish sens of heroïsm in this.

Also, Tzeentch and Slannesh lords are often presented as good manipulators (mind washing or lust inducing), and therefore could induce some heroïsm in their servants mind so they would try to protect the lord.

Word Bearers, as fanatics, are probably the most heroïcs of all as they will fight in any way, including sacrificing themselves, in order to carry the will of their gods (or delusion of their lords).

Alpha legionnaries are proud as a legion, not as individuals. And so I believe they could demonstrate some proud heroic sens in order to protect the pride of the legion as a whole.

 

Trust Mantis to change the goal posts

I agree with Mindraked completely though.

If every Chaos marine was selfish and only thought about himself, then i couldn't see the Chaos Legions exercising the amount of military precision they are.

Certainly, some legions enter into the brainwashed category, but others fight because they believe in it.

I can certainly see an Alpha Legionairre diving onto a grenade to save his squad.

It's a real conundrum for me. At first i started with Chaos just thinking they're cool. Now i'm starting to think they're heroic. I guess everyone feels that way about their favourite army though. *shrug*

 

Well, to further drag this topic away from the original post. I don't think Space Marines and their ilk are particularly heroic or "good guys." In time of war, the good guys are hard to find, but I'd probably pick the Tau as being the only good guys in Warhammer 40k.

If you think about it, the Emperor is something of a cruel tyrant who rules by fear, just like Abbadon and friends. Anybody dissenting from the Emperor and Tradition is branded a heretic, hunted down like a dog and killed in horrible ways. That's what the Inquisition is for.

Those who protect their lands from invaders though, the marines fighting the Tyranids or Necrons can be considered heroes so they do do some good, but then that begs the question as to whether the end justifies the means, but there's nothing honorable about bombing a planet into non-existence simply because there's a few mutants and psychics on it.

Which brings me back to what I said before about some legions thinking they are still serving the Emperor and Empire, Chaos can be a cruel master, but the Emperor isn't much better. A legion could believe that they are serving the true emperor (maybe Horus, but not necessarily) and fighting to protect the Empire and the Emperor from Bureaucrats and power-hungry Inquisitors and Chapter Masters who have corrupted it. Freedom Fighters, of course.

 

I think that the 40K universe demonstrates beautifully how there are no good guys or nice people when it comes to war. The Tau very much included in that.

Everyone fights for something they believe in, otherwise they wouldn't take up arms. Some do so because they are forced to, some do so because they are brainwashed unwittingly or otherwise, some because they enjoy it, but mainly because they think they are doing the right thing.

So, as with war today, despite what FOX NEWS wants you to believe, there is heroism and brave struggle by all sides at all times. There's lots more dirty tricks I'll wager, but you'll find heros on both sides.

Some Chaos marines may still be fighting for humanity. They're fighting against the False Emperor because they believe that someone else can do a better job. Maybe they'd be right though, and even though humanity would be entirely corrupted with Chaos, they/we'd be happier and better off.

Wow.. I feel like Giant_Mantis for typing that.

 

Some Chaos marines may still be fighting for humanity. They're fighting against the False Emperor because they believe that someone else can do a better job. Maybe they'd be right though, and even though humanity would be entirely corrupted with Chaos, they/we'd be happier and better off.

Plus, depending on your fluff, one could easily have their chaos army behave as disgruntled space marines, namely, those that originally rebelled against the Emperor and wanted him tossed off his thrown. If your army is early in the Heresy, then you could have heroic chaos marines that actually aspired towards humanity, believing the Emperor to be corrupt, believing he should not rule the Galaxy, and yet, still desire to be among the loyalist. Of course, this sounds a little like the Red Corsairs (I only said a little).

 

Chaos Space Marines hate each other, however they hate their enemies alot more. That excess hate allows them to work together and function as units. However each marine is always looking to advance so the Aspiring Champion I would say is a very dangerous position to hold unless you are the leader of a Lost and the Damned army where everyone serves you out of fear.

I'd imagine the Aspiring Champion has no illusions he will get aid from his fellow battle brothers if he takes a grievous wound. Most likely they will put a bolter to his face and kill him. That marine that does that almost instantly is Aspiring Champion for the unit. Now thats not to say they never create alliances with each other to gain the power they covet. But heroics such as self sacrifice would have such an ulterior motive behind it. It may be used for deamon summoning or a knowledge of the great schemers plans. If anything it would be there to make sure the guy you hate the most in your legion doesn't get power but someone who hates him as much as you do gets that power. Self sacrifice in the name of Spite.

 

Whoever said every Chaos Space Marine hates every other Chaos Space Marine? You seem to be forgetting that this isn't just a bunch of powerful, ambitious men; they're all one another's brothers in arms, and were from day one, just like their loyalist cousins. There's probably a lot of bad blood between different GROUPS of Chaos Space Marines, due to their differing goals - e.g. Cults serving opposite gods, Emperor's Children fighting for pleasure and thereby pissing off Iron Warriors who fight to destroy the Imperium they helped build, even internal squabbles like in Dead Sky Black Sun between the followers of two opposed Lords.

Besides, Chaos Space Marines barely even know the meaning of fear, I can't see you being able to truly rule them by fear, whatever Abaddon thinks. If an Aspiring Champion just scares them with his power fist they'll pop him from 10 feet away with their bolter. More likely they look to Champions for field leadership, which is kinda their purpose on the field.

However each marine is always looking to advance so the Aspiring Champion I would say is a very dangerous position to hold unless you are the leader of a Lost and the Damned army where everyone serves you out of fear.

But... the Lost and the Damned don't follow Aspiring Champions out of fear, they follow them out of devotion to such blessed messiahs of Chaos...

 

Yes but that devotion is also through fear. I am pretty sure an aspiring champion is not the guy to do to and say "hey sir our left flank just collapsed and most of the army is in full retreat." He would probably smash the messengers face in with what is called a powerfist. Also consider that Lord of th Night the feud between Krieger Acerbus and Tzo Sahaal. They were basically just rival champions and they did battle at the end of that book. In the Iron Warriors book the one marine lets his commanding officer get killed out of hate. As much as they are brothers they are also stepping stones for each others path to power. Power Corrupts and they believe chaos is the ultimate power and it corrupts them. To say they are brothers in arms like their loyalist breatheren is naive. Yes the aspiring champion is a battlefield leader for a squad of marines. But as i said it is probably one of the more dangerous positions. You cannot discount the dagger in the dark or the execution style that chaos tends to pride itself on.

 

Hi :w00t:

I think Chaos is more human society than Empire.
People in the Empire worship selfish death Emperor. They are afraid of authority of inquisitors etc. They live life in fear.
In Chaos you follow what you want.

No race in wh40k are good guys. Gods of Chaos are normal warp gods with their imaginations of world.
Is here onyone who can say it is bad way? Or better than annihilate civilizations under "fist" of emperor?

In my eyes Chaos is full of brave men who live as they want and serve from their free deciding. They serve new better gods. And they get along well with their comrades :yes:
As mentioned Chaos guys are fighters for freedom and for new (better) society. ( )

I like Slaanesh :wub: I think they live life full of sensations. They may love, hate and they enjoy it all
I think they are not brainless maniacs. You just have to look from another wiew

 

I think Chaos is more human society than Empire.
People in the Empire worship selfish death Emperor. They are afraid of authority of inquisitors etc. They live life in fear.
In Chaos you follow what you want.
[/QUOTE] Without going too deep into the humanities, what's more of a basic human condition than 'selfishness?' To put a spin on the age old debate, that is, whether humanity is good or evil; I've always likened this question to be about selfishness, namely, whether humanity, as a whole, is selfish. Most problems in this world are due to self-oriented actions, and most solutions come from some sort of self-sacrifice.

In any event, it seems that both chaos marines and the Emperor are selfish: The Emperor is an egoist; Chaos marines, as you said above, 'follow what they want.' Whose more selfish than an egoist, and what's more selfish than following or 'doing' what you want? In this regard, it seems that the chaos marines have more in common with the Emperor than his loyalist puppies (maybe they should kiss and make up).

 

I nearly agree with you Rabbit.
But Chaos Marines decide whom they will follow and whom they will liable for their acts. You join legion or cult and you know what will continue. What are your duties. And you can build you path and become a leader. Everybody work for legion or cult. I think Chaos have brotherhood, rules, latitude for choice.
Chaos marines want to change the world (human Empire) and for this duty they follow Chaos gods.

From our view Chaos Marines may not seem like good or normal guys. But they are.
We live in our society nearly without choice of what is good and what is bad... you know it from others. If others will force you whole your life to kill people you will do it. So we can´t say this is good or bad. We were forced to know good and bad things from society. Many things in our world is really very very bad and millions people belive they are right.

In wh40k the Empire society is horrible. I can imagine me joining Chaos cultists in hope for change the Empire.
And you... will you join us? :shifty:
8)

 

'Kay, this has gone on long enough in this section. ;-) Bad Karmoon.

Thread moved.

 

I would think the more organised Legions are more likely to have Marines sacrificing themselves for each other. The way I see it, the back-stabbing and paranioa wouldn't start untill an individual reached a position where they had a shot at the top, and the normal squad-level Marines probably still feel bonded to their unit.

The most self-sacrificial and heroic Chaos Marines are probably those who turned post heresy. They've had less time to become bitter and hateful.

 

Wow, I read everyone's posts from the first page onwards and I'm just amazed with how deep you guys go. I'm happy I joined this community ^^ To not spam, I'll give my two cents.

I may not know a 'whole lot' about Chaos Space Marines, but from what I know as far as literary 'evil' characters are concerned, there's no such thing as 100% evil, and I don't think the Chaos Space Marines are all inherently 100% over-the-top evil. These are men who have been together for millenia at a time, and they've fought with each other, bled with each other, they've shared defeat, and they've sat together in victory. Those experiences (as it's been said before) border on Brotherhood. Of course there's a promise of power, immortality, selfish-self-serving hoo-haa but there's also a great social condition that made these entire Legions *together* defect and join the side of Chaos.

It means they all thought the same thing, every man in the respective group believed they were and still are fighting for the right cause. Also if I'm not mistaken, they came from a specific gene-seed pool or somesuch, making them blood-related in more ways than one. Wouldn't that mean that they have some sort of empathic link like that of brother or twins? If so, they would feel, if even just a little, pain when a comrade fell. I'll make a dumb example, let's say... CSM Janus and CSM Miklos both fight in the Death Guard. They've been fighting in the same squad since they were Space Marines before the Heresy.

Now they get sent to fight (I dunno... let's say Necrons) so we have twelve CSM blasting away with their bolters standing atop a hill as a whole horde of Necrons slowly but surely march up it, shooting their gause rifles. CSM Miklos gets shot full in the chest and he falls in combat. - I simply CANNOT believe that CSM Janus would just shrug and keep firing and then run away and never give it a second thought. There has to be some kind of 'NO!! MIKLOS! YOU B*S*A*DS!' *shoots with added frenzy* I mean... there has to be some kind of emotion, link or feeling of camaradery. And thus, I think it *would* be heroic, for that Chaos Space Marine to... let's say carry off his friend into the drop-ship, or atleast fight along his broken body until he too is shot down.