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  1. #11
    Rules Attorney BrockSamson's Avatar
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    Agreed to an extent, but this is ridiculous even by their low standards.

    Fear me, mortals, for I am The Anointed, The Favored Son of Chaos, The Scourge of the World. The armies of the Gods rally behind me, and it is by My Will and by My Sword that your weakling nations shall fall. - Archaon, The Everchosen, Lord of the End Times

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  3. #12
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    It used to be the case that GW imposed a lot more restrictions, but expected that players would sometimes agree to ignore them for purposes of a narrative campaign or special scenario. Now it seems they have switched the default to be far more permissive, but in the expectation that players can always agree to impose extra restrictions should they wish. There doesn't seem much wrong with that in theory, but it does very much depend on how you play. It's easy enough to agree house rules with a regular group of gaming buddies, but if you're looking for pick-up games then it's like you go with whatever GW considers 'official'.

  4. #13
    Benevolent Dictator CaptainSarathai's Avatar
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    Yeah, and that's really where it's going to come down to a fight between GW and the fans. I don't think that anyone really has a problem with GW lifting all of the restrictions, except that GW doesn't balance their stuff or think things all the way through. There's that whole idea that a game as complex as Fantasy will never be perfectly balanced, but GW is like a spoiled kid who decides that means "just stop trying".

    Steven Wright said, as a joke; "When I was in school, teachers told me 'practice makes perfect', then they told me, 'nobody's perfect', so I stopped practicing."
    GW seems to have taken it to heart.

    So it will be interesting to see how/if these ideas catch on. Tournament players will either abuse it and make it un-fun for everyone, or they'll ignore it and possibly decline games which include such things because I highly doubt that competitions and tournaments will allow it. Friendly players might allow it, but they have been able to allow the stuff in the past, so I don't really see it increasing exposure there. Truly the only people who are affected are the people playing pick-up games, who couldn't call up their friends in the past and organize a Storm of Magic game where they got to use their SkinWolves, or ask permission in advance to use a Great Host of Chaos, but who also don't have to worry about ever facing Comp. restrictions or bans.

    Now, I have no idea how much of the market those kinds of people take up. I can't imagine that it can be much, because Warhammer is a social game and therefore anywhere you have one gamer, you have to have at least one other gamer, and it boggles my mind that (especially in Europe, where everyone is within a few minutes of the shop) that players haven't met and formed cliques within the building, or gone home to create clubs outside of it. In video games and the like, it's a very "solo" endeavor these days, you can play on your own if you have no friends. There are far more "novelty" players than there are hardcore e-athletes or guilds in videogames. I wonder if Warhammer is like that. If some kid is sitting at home and sees his local store as little more than a connection to a 'Call of Duty' server, where he can go to play against disposable people.
    Pts Values for AoS here!

    Nippon Armybook: Isuu, Scribd, and free at Google Docs

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  6. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainSarathai View Post
    it's going to come down to a fight between GW and the fans.
    I don't think they (GW) see it as a fight of any sort. I think there was a Jervis WD column on the subject not that long ago. They've always been happy for people to alter their rules, as long as they're still buying the miniatures. The problem with publishing 'optional' rules was that too often people didn't use them, sticking with the official default. So by making all rules 'official' GW hope to encourage their wider use, because permission becomes the default, but they don't mind if you want to say 'no scrolls' or 'no superheavies' or whatever.

  7. #15
    Benevolent Dictator CaptainSarathai's Avatar
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    When I say a "fight", I mean that I don't know how well received the add-ons are going to be. I know that in my group, we stick with the "Add-on's by permission only" mentality. We treat the Warriors' Code like a new supplement of sorts, "Hey, wanna play a 'Code' game? I brought my K'Daai today," and things like that.

    GW wants to sell models and make this stuff more widespread, and this was their answer. They're pushing these models on us, like you said - they're out for money. What I'm curious of, is how well that's going to work for them. They're saying, "no really guys, it's okay, take it, take it!" on one side, and on the other you have some of the fans saying "this is garbage, it'll unbalance the game, don't buy it". The people caught in the middle are the prize - either they side with GW and eventually the diehards have to give in and admit that they're going to be seeing a lot more Binding Scrolls and Pacts in their pickup games, or the diehards will win, and GW's sales of these minis will hardly change at all, because the default among the player base stays as "no scrolls, no heavies".

    GW seems to have a bit of a disconnect with it's customers, and that makes me really sad. It's one thing that I really like about the company when I started playing, and it's gone away bit by bit. I feel as though they've brought all of this upon themselves. Remember when White Dwarf was filled with cool mini-games and scenarios, or campaign rules and stuff? Remember when they had conversion tutorials and painting guides? Remember when it was a hobby magazine, instead of a catalogue? GW keeps saying that they want to to guide people towards playing the game for fun and enjoyment, as a hobby rather than a competitive event, but they don't guide us to anything except buying their latest rules and minis.
    Pts Values for AoS here!

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  8. #16
    Rules Attorney BrockSamson's Avatar
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    I understand that they are a company that needs to make profit, but they at least seemed interested in the game as a hobby before. Now it just seems so... fake. The new manager at my local store just pushes purchases the minute anyone walks in. People are turning more and more to eBay, etc. because GW is price gouging models and buffing units that people don't own to get them to buy them (cough Witch Elves). The company policy seems to have shifted from 'come have fun and spend some money' to 'come spend money and have fun'. It's a shift in priorities. I imagine the recession played a large role.
    Fear me, mortals, for I am The Anointed, The Favored Son of Chaos, The Scourge of the World. The armies of the Gods rally behind me, and it is by My Will and by My Sword that your weakling nations shall fall. - Archaon, The Everchosen, Lord of the End Times

  9. #17
    i am da Wahhchief Digger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainSarathai View Post
    GW seems to have a bit of a disconnect with it's customers, and that makes me really sad. It's one thing that I really like about the company when I started playing, and it's gone away bit by bit. I feel as though they've brought all of this upon themselves. Remember when White Dwarf was filled with cool mini-games and scenarios, or campaign rules and stuff?
    Quote Originally Posted by BrockSamson View Post
    I understand that they are a company that needs to make profit, but they at least seemed interested in the game as a hobby before. Now it just seems so... fake.
    This...

    I have been out for a few months and now i have a small tournament this weekend, made a funny Goblin list, i think it's funny... If people will abuse this storm of magic "all-in", i'm toast before the game starts xD.

    Here's for hoping the gamers are above this !
    Eternal Newbie

    Warchief Diggah o da Bloodmoon Squiggahs

  10. #18
    ISIS Secret Agent Squishy mpdscott's Avatar
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    I think that it's fairly safe to say, that in TV terms, GW has "jumped the shark".
    They've made the kinds of changes that make a mockery of so much of their previous work, to render the whole of the company's product lines an expensive joke, almost.
    They've spent so much time lately retconning their own official game timelines, just to fit in bigger and newer models, that even they aren't sure what the history actually is anymore.
    With the increases in prices, and the decrease in models per box, they've also been pricing themselves out of the market. There are so many other smaller companies out there that produce high quality models cheaper, and with more models in each box, that they finally have the competition they never wanted, and they haven't figured out that out pricing the new guy isn't the solution.
    Mysterious Member of the ANZAC Clan

  11. #19
    Benevolent Dictator CaptainSarathai's Avatar
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    I'm not really a financial analyst or anything, so I know that GW says that I'm not really qualified to rant online about their marketing strategies, but I agree with mpdscott.
    It's actually really funny, because Citadel has finally come full circle. Wayyyyyy back before my father was old enough to even have a drunken glimmer in his eye, GW was making miniatures to use with other games - namely 'Dungeons and Dragons' and the other TSR stuff that they were importing from the US. Then they realized that people were buying up their minis en masse and determined that they should come up with a game of their own. Starting with Reaper - skirmishes aimed at 10-30 models, it took them eight years before they started producing Warhammer Fantasy.

    Other companies are doing the same these to GW now. People like Mantic with their 'Kings of War' line, are making miniatures that are pretty obviously intended to be used in GW games. The rules for any games that these people put out are really just secondary. But imagine - if these guys keep developing the games, they'll eventually land on something. Privateer isn't really stealing anyone over from Warhammer Fantasy, because it's a different kind of game. 40k players seem to flock to them in droves though, because it's a very similar style.

    The Fantasy people seem to "mature" into historical wargaming. There always seems to be a "coming out party" whenever someone from Warhammer joins a historical wargaming circle. When I called to meet up a with a local group that routinely played the game 'Trial of Strength' - an Eastern Front WW2 simulator - they were like "oh, so you grew up on Fantasy eh? Welcome to the big-leagues." And you want to talk about people who should be playing Fantasy?! These were some of the wealthiest gamers I've ever met. One was a college professor, two were active/retired military officers, and the other two were an older well-off retired man and his son (who invited me into the club, even though he was a good 5-10 years older than I). It was fun, I eventually left because it was a bit boring, the men were all so much older than me. However, it sparked interest in a lot of other games, and I play a few of the 15mm strategics now, as well as a handful of WW1 aviation themed games.

    Anyways, there are rumors that GW is going to make small units more viable in 9th edition, and that the interview with the Rep recently, said that GW was acknowledging the high entry cost to their game, and was going to do something about that. Making smaller games more valid, or encouraging smaller units, would certainly be a way to do that. I'm starting the think that, perhaps, GW is trying to go back and kill off it's competition at the root: building a smaller game with model counts closer to the other current 28mm games. One thing that they certainly do have is quality of the minis. GW minis are still the best out there for their price-point, so it seems that they've still got that small-game mentality. Maybe they realize that companies that want to do large games are going to spam sub-par miniatures at you (as much as I like it, the WGF 'War & Conquest' is one such game, as is Kings of War), or they're going to to increase miniatures quality and cost, but decrease the number that you need. Every other game is shooting for a lower price-range than GW, regardless of miniature count. Maybe GW is going to aim for that same price range, increasing the cost per box of minis, but decreasing the number per regiment/game. They are already well established, I'm sure they can under-sell just about anyone else out there for the quality (they have been already). Their current fan-base, plus the current game's lineage, would be like throwing a champion heavyweight into the ring with a bunch of amateurs. They could kill that market, and maybe start the slow-grow all over again. Every few decades, cut the rest of the market off at the knees.
    Pts Values for AoS here!

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  12. #20
    LO Zealot Kaleb Daark's Avatar
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    I'm still very much convinced that this latest Warriors code will be superseded once again. I think that the throne of skulls upcoming fantasy tournament and the recent 40K throne with escalation allowed was really to see how the field becomes polarised when you allow a free for all do what you like mentality, and I suppose you would indeed see the worst extremes of what can be abused at tournaments.

    However, free for all or not, there will always be power builds at these events.

    One thing is for certain, with forge world eating at the same table as the family again, there will be a very real need and expectation to run those models in fantasy and 40k games, and so a rules shift to allow that. We've still got a fair bit of time for 9th ed, and this 'soup' might well be the last chance to get the system into some sort of order before the new rules finally release. I look on it as beta testing in some kind of way.

    We've already heard through the vine that FW may well be releasing codex for their stuff, and I'm sure that once the 40k cash cow is done they could well offer us a more comprehensive fantasy army book for say chaos dwarfs, but that is mere speculation on my part, based only on recent rumour and also remembering back to when the next fantasy forge book was going to come out (dwarfs/empire vs greenskins).

    Look at it from this angle, now that FW is part of the main family you have a whole range of monsters and their rulebook (MA) and a whole army and their army book (CD) to integrate into your existing machine WHFB core rules and SoM. It's clear that the allies rules from 40K whether we like it or not, have been profitable for them, and so how would you go about maximising that, and the very real awareness that people would also buy 'cool stuff' if they could used it in the confines of a standard framework?

    @Digger , I'll be in the same boat, I'm painting my friends chaos dwarfs so I'll just end up taking my stock warrior list to throne and yes, I expect to just face tides of destroyers and warp fire dragons, which means I'll be doing a lot of walking around when my warriors are nuked off the table in the first half hour.

    Like you Brock, I'm still not getting all this sorcerous pact stuff, nor am I really getting all this "take it out of special". However as suggested, perhaps a limit to how much of your special is the answer.

    The floodgate's been opened irrespective. Now its just how they stem the tide, as ultimately there have been a hell of a lot of chaos dwarf / carmine and warp fire dragon models sold, to suddenly U turn and just disallow them in future games. A bit like how when the Skullcrusher rules came out in WD, and we rushed out to fill our rare slots with then at 65 points, and then our new book came out and one third of our models were now surplus. I reckon we'll see another change as they experiment with their 'beta testing' till they nail down the 'release to market' new rules. Just my two pennies worth.

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