Scrollls of Binding - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

Welcome to Librarium Online!

Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!

Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!


Register Now!

User Tag List

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 23
  1. #1
    Rules Attorney BrockSamson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    USA
    Age
    37
    Posts
    785
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputation
    79 (x2)

    Scrollls of Binding

    So SoM, et al have a section describing how to take scrolls of binding in your army. It says that you get an extra 25% added to your list that can only be used on scrolls, pacts, etc. But people are talking like the scrolls just take a special choice, and don't even pay attention to the 25% limit. Am I missing something? I take two weeks off and I feel out of the loop lol.


  2. Remove Advertisements
    Librarium-Online.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    Benevolent Dictator CaptainSarathai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    inside your head
    Posts
    9,222
    Mentioned
    77 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    1480 (x8)

    This is a question I've been asking as well. The only thing that I've seen which comes anywhere even close to an answer is a rather idotic bit of GW rule "clarifying" regarding the Sorcerous Pacts (which follow the same rules as Scrolls, as I'm sure you're aware of). In the Throne of Skulls pack, they use an example of a Dark Elf player who uses a Vampire Counts pact. He somehow manages to spend 1200pts (Throne is a 2k game, so he should be limited to 1k for his Special) on Vampires, and therefore his army will nominally be considered a Vampire Counts army now.

    That's straight out of GW's lips, by the way. They seem to think that not only can you take more than 25% of your army as Pacts/Scrolls, but that you can also take more than 50% of your army as Special. Granted, I wrote the Special thing off right away as them being absolute mouth-breathers (among a hundred other more severe insults), but the fact that they seem to make no acknowledgement to the 25% ruling... I took that as meaning that it's just taken from Special.

    To be frank, I'd prefer that if they use it at all, they keep it to 25%. That means 625pts of your Special in 2500pt games, and that means that you won't see dual K'Daai lists in anything below 3k.
    Pts Values for AoS here!

    Nippon Armybook: Isuu, Scribd, and free at Google Docs

  4. #3
    Rules Attorney BrockSamson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    USA
    Age
    37
    Posts
    785
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputation
    79 (x2)

    Right, that's what set me off. I saw someone running a 2 K'Daai list at 2500 (not 2500+625, just 2500), and I thought that to be insane. Even if they just say you can take them as special, there should still be a 25% cap.

    Also, if you read through SoM, there are things to offset the cheese. Like now every wizard knows a cantrip that casts on a 3+ that can unbind a monster. Even FW saw the potential cheese and rushed to compensate. But that section isn't allowed so, now we just all run to the hills?

    I think if anyone puts a double K'Daai list on the table I'm just going to tell them that we never agreed to an extra 25% SoM point allotment, and even if that becomes default, that they've broken the 25% limit. Stupid.

    This was a chance for them to add an interesting turn to the game rules, freshen things up before 9th. And then they just screwed the pooch on execution.
    Fear me, mortals, for I am The Anointed, The Favored Son of Chaos, The Scourge of the World. The armies of the Gods rally behind me, and it is by My Will and by My Sword that your weakling nations shall fall. - Archaon, The Everchosen, Lord of the End Times

  5. Remove Advertisements
    Librarium-Online.com
    Advertisements
     

  6. #4
    Benevolent Dictator CaptainSarathai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    inside your head
    Posts
    9,222
    Mentioned
    77 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    1480 (x8)

    Yeah, that's generally my thought as well - I didn't have a problem at all with the inclusion of the SoM stuff, but they really did drop the ball on execution. There's other nastiness that fits within the 25% limit though (fairly certain dual Warpfire Dragons is just as popular as the K'Daai).

    My group doesn't play with the SoM stuff - we limit games to Tamurkhan lists/units and whatever comes in your normal book plus any of the little PDFs you've got (which we haven't seen hit the table yet, from anyone). We've sort of always had a "for fun" thing though - I get to use my Nippon book for crying out loud, and other unofficial armies aren't frowned upon. Occasionally yes, we'll allow for the SoM stuff, or just play SoM games. It's more common however, for us to allow a player to field Allies using the regular rules provided, and just play an army with allies under the same generalship. It's no different than a Pact, except that there are limits on who can ally together, and rules for that alliance falling apart.

    So yes, in short - the ramshackle inclusion of SoM stuff was a failure even from the point of view of "playing for funsies".
    Pts Values for AoS here!

    Nippon Armybook: Isuu, Scribd, and free at Google Docs

  7. #5
    LO Zealot
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Age
    38
    Posts
    1,093
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    114 (x4)

    Quote Originally Posted by BrockSamson View Post
    It says that you get an extra 25% added to your list that can only be used on scrolls, pacts, etc. But people are talking like the scrolls just take a special choice, and don't even pay attention to the 25% limit.
    I have no idea how scrolls are supposed to work, but just one point based on maths... Suppose we agree to play a nominally 2000 point battle with SoM, so we get an extra 500 for scrolls etc. This means, in effect, that we have 2,500 point armies with a maximum of 20% to be spent on scrolls (not even 25%). What is there suggesting that you're allowed 25% of your army?

  8. #6
    Benevolent Dictator CaptainSarathai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    inside your head
    Posts
    9,222
    Mentioned
    77 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    1480 (x8)

    If we played a 2000pt game of Storm of Magic, then yes, you would get an additional 25% of the value of your army (500pts) to field as Scrolls/Pacts, driving the value of your army up to 2500pts. Very similar to how you can have allies in Treachery.

    However, if you weren't aware Ben, GW has just thrown up their hands and said that you can take Scrolls/Pacts in any game, not just SoM. SoM has always capped you at 25% of your total points, it was just whether or not you got them as extra (which is why your math comes up 20% rather than 25%) or if you were taking them as part of your Special, like you are now.
    The argument has less to do with percentages, and more to do with balance and raw points. If you are only allowed 625pts for Pacts/Scrolls, it cuts out a lot of the cheese, and their inclusion makes less of an impact in your games (at least 75% of your opponent's army is still from their own book). For example, two K'Daai cost you at least 650pts. That means that in Storm of Magic, you wouldn't see them unless you were playing 2600pts plus 25% for a total game value of 3250. With the new 'Warriors Code' ruling, if you can field them as just Special, with no further restrictions, you can field a pair of K'Daai in games as small as 1300pts, far less than half of the game size that K'Daai were written for (interestingly, because in their native Chaos Dwarf book they're Rare and therefore also on a 25% limit).
    Pts Values for AoS here!

    Nippon Armybook: Isuu, Scribd, and free at Google Docs

  9. #7
    LO Zealot
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Age
    38
    Posts
    1,093
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    114 (x4)

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainSarathai View Post
    if you weren't aware Ben, GW has just thrown up their hands and said that you can take Scrolls/Pacts in any game, not just SoM. SoM has always capped you at 25% of your total points, it was just whether or not you got them as extra (which is why your math comes up 20% rather than 25%) or if you were taking them as part of your Special, like you are now.
    Yes, I was aware that people are now taking them from Special, but what I was replying to is this:

    Quote Originally Posted by BrockSamson View Post
    people are talking like the scrolls just take a special choice, and don't even pay attention to the 25% limit.
    The question, I take it, is can we now use our whole 50% Special allowance on Scrolls, or are they still limited to 25% of our army as well as counting towards Special?

    I didn't propose to answer that question either way. My point was that Storm of Magic never actually allowed 25% of your total points to be spent on Scrolls, if total is defined as the nominal points value plus the extra allowed. That is, you can have a 2000 point army plus 500 points of Scrolls = no more than 20% of your 2,500 is Scrolls. Or, to use your other example, in order to have 625 points of Scrolls in SoM, you would need a total army of 3250 (i.e. 2,600 + the extra 625) - again, no more than 20% of the total is Scrolls.

    So, if there is any restriction on Scrolls other than the Special 50%, it seems it ought to be 20%, not 25%. Whether there is intended to be any restriction at all, I don't know, but if your opponent brings 500 points of Scrolls out of his 2,000 point army then that is more than he would have been allowed in SoM (because in SoM his army would count as 1500 points, giving him an extra 375 for Scrolls - or, to make 2,000 total, he would need a 1,600 point army + 400 extra for Scrolls).

  10. #8
    Rules Attorney BrockSamson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    USA
    Age
    37
    Posts
    785
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputation
    79 (x2)

    Right. This is just reversal math. If your army list is value Y, your army in SoM is 5/4 x Y (125%). Therefore, your original list would only be 4/5 of the new SoM list (or -20%). So yes, scrolls would technically only be able to take 20% of the final army list's points, because it is the first army list's points +25%.

    The whole point is, as Cap said, these creatures were never intended to be in smaller games, much less doubled up. But them counting as regular special choices allows that.

    I guess that's my question... is that an official GW ruling? Scrolls just count as a regular special choice?
    Fear me, mortals, for I am The Anointed, The Favored Son of Chaos, The Scourge of the World. The armies of the Gods rally behind me, and it is by My Will and by My Sword that your weakling nations shall fall. - Archaon, The Everchosen, Lord of the End Times

  11. #9
    Benevolent Dictator CaptainSarathai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    inside your head
    Posts
    9,222
    Mentioned
    77 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    1480 (x8)

    That I've seen - they are "taken for your Special, following normal restrictions"
    So yeah, I don't know. I mean, do 'normal restrictions' mean normal for Special (no more than three copies of a unit, no more than 50% max) and therefore you could even take 3 copies of certain monsters? Or does it mean normal for SoM? I really don't know, and the only thing I've seen that even comes close to being an "official answer" is that they seem to be under the impression that you can take at least 50% of your army as a Pact force.
    Pts Values for AoS here!

    Nippon Armybook: Isuu, Scribd, and free at Google Docs

  12. #10
    LO Zealot
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Age
    38
    Posts
    1,093
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    114 (x4)

    I suspect the intention is take them from Special without any further restrictions. GW care more about selling models than game balance.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts