So........... New beginnings - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    Drill Sergeant Lord Borak's Avatar
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    2052 (x8)

    So........... New beginnings

    Well, 9th is finally here. I must admit I haven't even looked at the rules for it (doing that tonight). What are peoples thoughts of how our army will work out in this new edition? What are the main changes to our army? Any test games so far?

    Experiences please


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  3. #2
    Benevolent Dictator CaptainSarathai's Avatar
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    1480 (x8)

    Not quite sure what you'd like to hear. I mean, the biggest thing for you to get over -not having read the rules- is that you have to throw everything you know about Warhammer out the window as soon as you sit down. Age is not Warhammer Fantasy. It is a good, fun, and (dare I say) balanced ruleset provided...

    You have to balance it yourself. GW would prefer that we all sat down with our opponents and hashed out a pair of fun, fluffy armies together and then played it out. That's unlikely. What is more common between players lately, is an agreement to a set number of Wounds. Most people seem to be playing at 100 Wounds per force. My group prefers to play at 150 Wounds, as this is much closer to what you get when you transfer our "old" 2500pt lists over to AoS.
    GW has suggested some other balance rules, notably:

    1-12 total Scrolls (we do not use this)
    1-2 Hero keywords
    0-2 Monster keywords
    No duplicate Heroes (we allow 1 duplicate)
    No more than 2x of any other Scroll
    Max #Wounds/Scroll (we did not use this)

    Additionally, players on the web are also balancing the game with:
    2 Models with 10+ Wounds
    10 Models with 3+ Wounds
    7 Characters

    And a typical house-rule is that you cannot have more than 3 summoned units on the table for your army, at any one time (this is super important for Chaos, funnily enough, and even moreso for Lizardmen).

    If you're not using these balance rules - at least the max Wounds per list rule - then there's no balance to the game and you might as well field whatever you want and pray that your opponent is "just a swell guy."
    --

    That said, if the game is balance out by Wounds, there is one thing which I cannot stress enough:
    Battle Shock is the great equalizer in this game.
    Read it, hate it, read it again, and learn to love it.
    Basically, everyone crumbles like Daemons now. If you lose even one model during the turn, you have to test for Shock at the end of it. Roll 1D6 and add the number of models lost. For every point above your Bravery, you lose a model. Not a wound. A model. Go 1pt over on a regiment of 'Rauders? Lose a single, 1W Marauder. Go 1pt over on a regiment of Skull Crushers? Lose a single, 5W Skull Crusher.
    This rule, combined with the "flat" To Hit and To Wound rolls, is what allows regiments like Goblins or Skinks to actually do something against regiments of Trolls and other nasties.

    Right now, there's a bit of a debate in my group about what kinds of units you should field, and how many of each model. I view this as a good thing, as it means that there's some level of tactical depth to the list-building element of the game. Basically, high-wound models are going to take fewer Battleshock tests, and have fewer modifiers (less likely to lose 10 Warriors than 10 Marauders in one round of attacks, for a +10 to your Shock). However, those big models lose out more when you do have to test. Wounds carry through between turns, so while a Chaos Warrior has 2W, you're always either "fresh dead" or carrying a wound and 1 more will roll you a Shock.

    Solos are immune to Shock. Characters cannot join units - they are a "1 model Unit", so if you lose a model (and would subsequently have to roll Shock) then the whole unit is already dead. This is why I don't personally advise running high-wound units like Chariots together in units. Two, solo chariots will do just as much damage as a regiment of 2 Chariots, and they are individually immune to Shock.
    --

    When looking at units, it's also important to throw out your notions about 8th. The "Legacy" lists (pdf files for old armies, like WoC) are not indicative of what we're getting from the future AoS releases. I have a feeling that a lot of the units in here are only here to bridge the gap. In the future, the factions will have far fewer unit choices, but each of those will be the equivalent of the current "Special/Rare" choices from the Legacy lists. People want to know why you would ever field Warriors when Chosen are so obviously better and still only cost 2W. Easy - you don't. Warriors are just there because Warriors were there in 8th. If/when "Warriors of Chaos" gets it's AoS book, I expect that the current 'Chosen' will be the primary choice - the equivalent to the Stormcast Eternals.
    --

    Having played my WoC army in a few test games, I can tell you that they are just as brutally effective as they were in 8th.
    The downside to our list is that we lack shooting (which is really powerful in AoS, as you can shoot into and out of combat, and even shoot the unit you're in combat with), and everything that we want to take is Multi-Wound. Warriors are 2W each. Knights are 3W and it only goes up from there. If we do start taking Shock tests, our small army gets really small in a hurry.
    Our magic is not good unless we take the Tzeentch Sorcerer Lord, or the Sorcerer Lord on a Manticore. We can summon Daemon Princes onto the table though, which is nuts. Wizards have two common spells, and then a spell that is unique to their entry. That's why you're stuck using particular sorcerers for the good effects.

    The good new however, is that we have ways to give whole swathes of our army Reroll To Hit, Reroll To Wound, +1 Wound, +2 Bravery, and all kinds of insane bonuses.
    Marks are now Keywords, added to the unit. The big ones are Khorne (all the time) and Nurgle (with the Lord abilities). Khorne lets 3 units near your general reroll Hits. Nurgle does the same, but with Wounds. For the record Tzeentch is saves, and Slaanesh is Charge and Shock checks. The BSB gives you +2 Bravery if he plants the flag, and you can have multiple BSBs on the table for stacking bonuses. If a unit of Chosen kills an enemy model, all friendly WoC models within 8" of the unit can reroll their To Hit rolls for the rest of the phase.

    Determining where your good units lie, is based on finding the synergy between them, and seeing how much you can squeeze into your Wounds allowance.

    But the short answer is that people still hate fighting against Warriors of Chaos just as much as they always did. They're hard to kill, they're super lethal, and if you get your synergy right they're nearly unstoppable on the field. And oh yeah - we can summon Daemon Princes.
    Pts Values for AoS here!

    Nippon Armybook: Isuu, Scribd, and free at Google Docs

  4. #3
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    Almost looks like a more complex version of Heroscape. (Not saying that as a bad thing. I LOVED Heroscape and still have all my stuff.)

    Are the stats for "WoC" the same as the Warscrolls Compendium on the GW website?

    Have you noticed a significant advantage of a 2" melee weapon range over the 1"?

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  6. #4
    Benevolent Dictator CaptainSarathai's Avatar
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    1480 (x8)

    The stats for WoC are the same, yes.
    One thing that a lot of people are missing, is that we're not bound to a single army anymore. We can include the Bloodtide stuff from the start box, we can lump in Daemons or Beastmen for a really cool Chaos army, or we can tag in Skaven, and other "Destruction" armies if we want to.

    The melee ranges are one thing that makes playing on square bases a bit of an obstacle.
    >>Firstly, it's worth pointing out that it's only possible to "game" them on the turn that your units charge into melee. After that, the enemy will either retreat, or he will Pile In. This is true of both Skirmish and Block play styles.
    It is possible however, to move so that only a single model from your unit is within 1/2" of the enemy, and then leave the rest of your models between 1-2" away and essentially get your maximum attacks with only minimum attacks in return. Wounds still spill over, so even if only a few models can attack your 1/2" guy, if they inflict 6W, you still take 6W from the unit.
    >>Secondly, when playing in blocks, it's worth pointing out that you can attack in 2 Ranks with a 1" reach weapon. Everyone can do this, provided they are on a 25mm base or smaller. This is where the "base size doesn't matter" thing really gets under my skin. They claim that you measure from the model itself - fine. Middle of the base. Center-mass of the model is fair, and you're getting 1 rank fighting normally, 2 ranks with reach weapons. Halberds, therefore, now "fight in extra ranks" as if they were Spears. And that's a little sick.

    That's the short answer. No, they don't make a whole lot of difference unless you are intentionally being a jerk about your movement, and are mainly playing the skirmish game to make it easier to exploit.

    Now, the long version, is something I've been considering making a whole thread about, and that's how to handle combat between ranked up "8th style" units.

    The Turn: You can Move, See, Shoot, and Charge in any direction. Welcome to Age of Sigmar, get used to it, and shut your mouth-holes.

    Charging:
    Do yourself a favor and measure from the target unit, to your own regiment. Do this, because any overspill into the second and subsequent ranks means that you can technically move those models forward and create more files (you can go from being 5 wide, to 15 wide when you charge, if you roll high enough and want to do that).
    Remember that you have to come within at least 1/2" inch (not contact) for the charge to be successful. We've been measuring from the farthest point on the enemy regiment and swinging the ruler over the ranks to see how many models we could get in. Sometimes it works out that you're charging corner-to-corner, but you can reach enough to get 5 modes into contact: just wheel the unit and form up in 5 files if you're not already.

    Piling In:
    Models pile in before attacking. If you're only charging with a single unit, then it doesn't hurt to just add the Pile In to the charge roll. Determine if you could make it within half with just the Charge distance (successful charge) and then add 3" to that when figuring out how much overlap you've got into your back ranks for overspill.
    Once in combat, you would technically measure 3" from the models themselves and move them into combat with the enemy. NOPE. We abstract this - you can add 5 models to the front rank (and fill out the ranks behind them) each turn. If this means that you could "lap around" as you could in earlier editions (moving models so that they are flanking the enemy regiment) then you may do that. When the opponent piles in, they can add files of their own and force you back "straight" (the enemy expands their frontage, and the guys who were on the flank get moved back to the front rank of your unit).
    It's obviously hard to explain and that's why the "Lapp 'Round" rule didn't last for very long once the game started becoming a bit more streamlined.

    Who can strike:
    Just translate X" to X Ranks. So 1" Range means Base-contact only (1 ranks). 2" range means that you can attack "through" a friendly to hit the enemy (2 ranks). When in doubt, just line up some bases off to the side and measure. We measure from the center of the base. Not the models themselves.

    Casualties:
    Remember that you can always choose which casualties to remove. They hit your Champion with a bunch of attacks? Good for them, you can remove literally anyone else if you want. The idea of needing to have more than one model carry any one standard is therefore pointless - you have 1 standard bearer, and he doesn't die until you say he does, or he's the last model left. Some units can technically carry two standards, in which case you have two standard bearers, and when one die, you decide which banner effect to lose. You can always elect to remove casualties from the non-fighting ranks.
    You can, however, remove casualties "40k style" to get yourself out of the 3" range if the fight is particularly boody, or you're on huge bases like Skull Crushers. You can pull modes from the front. DON'T DO THIS! Pull them from the back, and use them as a measuring stick to just move your regiment backwards. It's easier that way. For example, if you lose 1 rank, just remove the models from the rear, and then separate the two fighting units by 1 full base-width.
    Pts Values for AoS here!

    Nippon Armybook: Isuu, Scribd, and free at Google Docs

  7. #5
    LO Zealot Kaleb Daark's Avatar
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    292 (x6)

    We can also summon all demons units/ models except named characters
    In the demon scrolls it states that "a chaos wizard can summon this unit".... Anything, apart from named characters


    I get to field the jugger army which I've always wanted with a wizard on the warshrine summoning more juggers

  8. #6
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    For me personally I will probably start fielding every model of old 10,000+ points collection that have sat on the shelf for so long - I really dont know what else to do just yet, its not really as though my opponent could complain I had too much since there is no restriction as to what I could potentially bring along now.

    Seen a couple of battle reports and quite liked the way the game plays but it absolutely needs some sort of guideline as to what is an acceptable army size to allow players to form any sort of balance to their games.
    Last edited by Disk Rider; July 12th, 2015 at 18:26.

  9. #7
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    Personally I had so much fun with the new ruleset that I am happy. Played only WoC in 8th, so it might have been my own mistake getting slightly bored of it.

    Marauder Cavalry I have found no purpose for, if somebody can figure out what to use those models for, do tell.

    Knights and chosen were awesome. When the Chosen crash in and buff all the knights around them, carnage ensues. I love playing my Chosen models, so I am happy about this!

    But I have to ask one question about the combat, if anybody can specificy it to me...

    So three units of Chaos charge in the combat with two units of enemies. Who hits what first? First the attacking (charging) player hits something with one unit, who attacks next? If I read word by word the rules, they are chosen in turns, so I could choose my lord to attack first, then opponent chooses ANOTHER combat to strike back with, until we run out of units in turns to attack with, giving less use for actual charging and multicombat? Or did I understand something quite wrong.

  10. #8
    Benevolent Dictator CaptainSarathai's Avatar
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    1480 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by Scythe View Post
    So three units of Chaos charge in the combat with two units of enemies. Who hits what first? First the attacking (charging) player hits something with one unit, who attacks next? If I read word by word the rules, they are chosen in turns, so I could choose my lord to attack first, then opponent chooses ANOTHER combat to strike back with, until we run out of units in turns to attack with, giving less use for actual charging and multicombat? Or did I understand something quite wrong.
    Players choose units. It doesn't matter if they're in the same combat - you can jump around. Basically, the player who's turn it is, picks the first unit. Then you can pick any of your units on the table and in combat, and roll their fight. Then he gets to pick again - any unit in any combat, anywhere. And back and forth until every unit close enough to the enemy has fought.

    As for MCav - remember that you can shoot in/out of combat now. So what you get with them, is a unit that can (every other turn) throw 2x Axes into the fight before swinging with their weapons in melee. When you're trying to whittle down 50 Clan Rats, this is helpful info.
    Pts Values for AoS here!

    Nippon Armybook: Isuu, Scribd, and free at Google Docs

  11. #9
    Senior Member Boshea's Avatar
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    Unless something really wows me in the big book, I currently have my entire WoC collection up for sale on a local forum. I just don't have interest in what is essentially medieval 40k now. Any rule fixes that work will just get ported over to 40k in the next edition, and its far easier to find games for it locally. I also have a bit of a thorn in my side about our local whfb community so the army has been sitting in storage for almost a year now. Kind of just been downsizing on games for the last while anyway. If its not something I want to play, or keep for hobby interest, I may as well just free up the shelf space. From what I'm seeing there isn't anything in AoS from a basic level that 40k doesn't do, and I have far more interest in working on my Soritas than my WoC. If Kings of War had a not-Chaos faction I may have considered holding onto them to look into that system, but as it stands I'm not looking to keep two armies for fairly similar systems.

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    Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask, but this place seems to have the brightest minds on Librarium!

    Looking into the new rules (AoS), and have some questions:

    Looking at Galrauch's profile, he has two kinds of ranged attacks and two melee:
    Can I use both in the same phase (that is, attack with both Maws and Talons)? Same question for the ranged ones. Also, do I choose weapons for units before the game, or do they have all available through the game? Can I combine any weapon with shields?


    I get a bit confused, since all attacks from a model is printed together (so a rider and their mounts are listed together, but I'm pretty sure they can both attack in the same phase, but on the other hand I'm pretty sure the Warriors don't get to do two attacks with all their weapons listed in their profile...).


    I apologize for my poor spelling and for being all 'round terrible...

    Greetings from the frozen north!

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