<2000 2000 High Elf Tournament infantry combat - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
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    2000 High Elf Tournament infantry combat

    Hi all.

    This is my close combat infantry High Elf army. Please be harsh. I want to win games. My local store is 25% Warriors of Chaos, no Dark Elves and no Wood Elves.

    I'm thinking the Archmage will go with the Phoenix Guard. Not sure where the Noble should go. Right now, I'm thinking he'll go with the White Lions. Thanks for your help!

    Archmage
    - shadow
    - Book of Hoeth
    - ironcurse icon
    - golden crown

    Noble
    - BSB
    - great weapon
    - heavy armor
    - lion cloak

    30 White Lions
    - banner of world dragon
    - champion

    35 Spears
    - standard bearer

    25 Spears
    - standard bearer

    Eagle

    3 lion chariots

    12 Phoenix Guard
    - champion


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  3. #2
    Benevolent Dictator CaptainSarathai's Avatar
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    Of the three lists that you've posted, this is probably the most "standard" of the lot. You're headed in the right direction - White Lions are powerhouses, a L4 Mage is practically a necessity, and the BSB will keep your expensive units in the fight. You've even tossed in the 'Banner of the World Dragon' to really make your opponents angry. For this list, I've really only go small nitpickings, and they're mainly reserved for the kinds of stuff that you'll learn by experience, and that apply to practically every army in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by hhow3859 View Post
    Archmage
    - shadow
    - Book of Hoeth
    - ironcurse icon
    - golden crown
    The Golden Crown is not a substitute for an actual Wardsave. My suggestion would be to toss the Talisman of Preservation onto him for a 4++ at all times. It will just barely fit alongside the Book of Hoeth.
    As for the book itself - it's very good. It is also expensive however, and while the reroll is nice, I rarely use the Book myself. Better to keep our characters as minimal as possible. Your general should always have a 4+ Ward, but beyond that, nothing ever "leaps out at me" for our Wizards. If you find yourself wanting another 50-something points somewhere in the army, the Book is the first place I'd come looking.

    Noble
    - BSB
    - great weapon
    - heavy armor
    - lion cloak
    If this guy is joining a unit, he'll be relatively safe from shooting attacks. Only 'Snipers' (which are very rare in WHF can pick him out individually, and only template shooting attacks can actually hit him rather than the rest of his unit. Since these templates are usually going to be cannons (which ignore Armor altogether) and allow for a "Look Out Sir!" roll (on a 2+, the hit is moved to a member of the regiment instead), you don't really need the individualized defense that the Lion Cloak provides.
    You do, however, need a Wardsave of some kind. The most popular option here is the stupidly cheap 'Shield of the Merwyrm'. It is a Parry Save, and therefore doesn't work outside of combat or against certain things like Stomp attacks or Impact Hits. However, like shooting, those attacks will generally target the regiment, and cannot usually be directed onto single models. The advantage to the Shield of the Merwyrm is that it can be used in conjunction with a magical weapon - you'll lose the Greatweapon, but you could pick up the Sword of Might for +1S and retain your ASF rerolls. Another popular option is the Sword of Antiheroes, as any characters in the enemy unit (including Champions) grant +1S and +1A, each. Against big, expensive "Deathstar" units filled to the brim with enemy BSBs, Wizards, and so on, it's easy to turn your "mere Noble" into a force of pure destruction. Of course, once those characters are dead (or if there are none at all) it's a wasted pile of points sitting on your character.
    Otherwise, the Armor of Destiny is a relatively "standard take" for BSBs the world over.

    30 White Lions
    - banner of world dragon
    - champion
    I'd like to see a Musician in here, as much for the Quick Reforms as the "tie breaker" ability in combat. Also, you didn't bill it out separately, but only because you're new - you realize that you still have to pay in for a Standard Bearer in order to take a Magic Banner, correct?
    Anyways, this is a solid unit. In fact, your Wizard will probably want to stand here, once he's got a Wardsave on him. The BotWD gives the unit a 2+ ward against Magic, and that includes the damage that you see from Miscast results. So it's easy to stand your Wizard on a corner of the unit and blast away spells with impunity.
    I will say that 30 is an oddball unit size for me. Elves already fight in 3 ranks, so there's no sense in making them a "Horde" 10 wide, unless you go off the deep end altogether and take 40+ of them. However, White Lions are also Stubborn, and therefore don't need to have many ranks of their own. I like to field mine wide rather than deep, but generally only go 7-8 models across. You could run 35 of them and have a 7x5 formation, which would be huge, or something smaller - like 21 or 24 models in three ranks.
    Remember to always drop a model if you're escorting characters, just to save points and keep the units tidy. Adding a Wizard or BSB to this unit will give you a "tail end Charlie" hanging off the back of the unit. I find that 'Charlie' usually gets forgotten in a wood somewhere, or scooped off the table with my casualties after a rough combat.

    Eagle
    A lone Eagle isn't going to cover you for "anti-warmachine" purposes, or for fighting the "chaff war", unfortunately. An opponent who has shooting worth protecting is going to see that Eagle and single him out by T1 or T2, and even then, if a lone Eagle does get across the field, expect him to only knock out maybe 1-2 machines over the course of the game (against Dwarfs, 1 machine if you're lucky- their crews wear heavy armor).
    Eagles do fill the chaff role however, and provide "dummy drops" early in your deployment. I would just suggest getting more of them. The alternative chaff unit in our book would be Ellyrian Reavers. They do cost a bit more, but have the advantage of hitting a bit harder than an Eagle, and being Core. Core in Fantasy is often considered a "tax", because you're forced to fill those points one way or another. Fielding an Eagle as your chaff, when there is another unit in the Core section capable of doing the same job, is like incurring a 50pt "tax". You could drop the Eagle, drop a few Spears, replace them with Ellyrian Reavers to get you back to minimum Core, and free yourself up 50pts to use elsewhere in your Special or Rare. You don't lose anything, really - you keep a Chaff unit, even if it is slightly more expensive than your original Eagle. Any role that you can fill equally well with a Core unit, should be taken as a Core regiment. White Lions are infinitely better than our Spears, but Eagles are only marginally better (in fact, even that's debatable) than Reavers - taking Reavers rather than Eagles frees up points to replace Spears with White Lions.

    3 lion chariots
    You really seem to like these, and in this list, they fit the theme, but still aren't necessarily great units. Yes, three of them would hit stupidly hard, and they are giving you 3 separate drops in deployment (to help win the deployment phase of the game), but DK makes an excellent point in the other thread: each of these Chariots represents almost 10 White Lions. All together, that's a second regiment of 30 Lions for your army. Ask yourself which is better. Again, especially because you could replace the "dummy drop" aspect of these chariots with Reavers, or the "pinpoint damage" with Silver Helms, and fulfill Core points - replacing your Spears with that White Lion block. Once again, you lose nothing in regards to unit count, but gain a secondary block of Lions.

    12 Phoenix Guard
    - champion
    That's a small unit... I really don't like the idea of keeping a unit in the list just to escort a character. Especially when this unit has no means to apply itself outside of combat, but is too small to go into combat, and doing so would put your character in the exact place you're obviously trying to avoid.
    I can't argue as much when someone uses Archers or Sisters of Avelorn to "bunker" their Wizard, because at least these models can be putting shots down-range while they're standing in the back (and Archers count towards your Core). Of course the risk is that these units are a lot more "squishy" and generally don't have the numbers necessary to take a big hit. For instance, 30 Archers is a monstrously huge and impractical unit, but a smaller regiment of 20 is going to be taking Panic checks every 5 casualties.
    I'm obviously not a fan of putting my Wizard straight into the units who are most likely to see the nasty combats (although he does work as a sort of "bait" to lure expensive enemy regiments into combat with something like Lions), but I'm not going to shelter him behind the lines. The combination of a 4+ Wardsave and a few "duck out" tricks can keep you safe from the worst of combat, and if he joined your Spears, the types of targets that they prefer to fight (numerous, low S/T enemies) usually can't threaten your Wizard too much.

    35 Spears
    - standard bearer

    25 Spears
    - standard bearer
    Yep, the humble Spear Elves. I've been giving you tips on how to replace these guys all thread, but Spear Elves will do nicely for you. Just remember that unless we have something game-breakingly cheap in our Core section (maybe Silver Helms and Reavers), anything from Special and Rare will outperform your Core, point-for-point. Therefore, it's best to shoot for just enough Core to meet your minimums, and then stop. Obviously, don't cripple a unit just to keep the price from going over, but I would try to trim down that bigger unit just a bit.
    Also, the advice to swap out Spears for Reavers or Silver Helms is popular. They are both great units - Silver Helms are some of the best cavalry in the game, and are the best Lance-Cav. If you aren't worried about having a Rank Bonus, they can even do the "Lance Formation" (3x3) better than Bretonians. Big units of Silvers make some of the best "Knight-train" units in the game, because they attack in 3 ranks and therefore lose nothing. Small units still pack quite a punch on the charge, for their cost, owing to their ASF.
    Reavers are much the same - with Spears they are among the hardest hitting "chaff capable" units in all of Warhammer. They're too expensive to throw away like Chaos Hounds or maybe Wolf Riders, but they have solid leadership and move very fast, making them excellent for Fleeing and then Rallying as a form of redirection, rather than "sticking and dying" like an Eagle or the cheap Hounds/Wolves. Where Reavers excel though, is in hunting chaff, allowing you to win the chaff war not by having more chaff of your own, but by being able to quickly and efficiently destroy enemy chaff without wasting several hundred points worth of shooting or magic on it.

    As DK said in his reply, the advice that other players give you is entirely up to you to implement. If you don't like the way the army looks, or how it plays, tailor it to suit your style. My armies are usually the unimaginative "internet list" - built out of units that are mathematically superior or widely accepted by the community as being the most useful and powerful within their role. However, players like Furbyballer and other top tournament players usually don't follow this kind of building method - preferring instead to tweak and personalize their armies to the point that they no longer resemble the "net list", and may even go so far as to use units which the "general population" considers awful.
    It's all about striking a balance and figuring out what works for you. This is a good starting point - a powerful list made with common units that you can then tweak and tinker with as your collection grows. Buy some Shadow Warriors later on just because you like how they look? Toss them in the list and see how they play. Most people think they're awful and not worth the points, but maybe you experiment a bit and discover a combination of units, spells, or items that suddenly makes them one of the most powerful regiments on your table.
    Pts Values for AoS here!

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