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  1. #1
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    2000 High Elf dragon close combat

    Hi all,

    I know everybody bashes on the dragon's effectiveness, but I really want to build a 2000 point list with him. I don't care which flavor of dragon. For this list, I have made him a moon dragon. The mage will go in the Phoenix Guard unit. The idea is that everybody rushes to get in combat as soon as possible.

    Please be harsh. I want to win games. Aside from just army composition suggestions, comments on tactics would also be appreciated. Thanks guys!

    Prince on Moon Dragon
    - great weapon
    - golden crown
    - enchanted shield
    - potion of strength

    Mage of High Magic
    - level 2
    - dispel scroll
    - channeling staff

    18 Silverhelms
    - standard bearer
    - shields

    5 Reavers
    - bows

    2 lion chariots

    Eagle
    - talons

    5 Dragon Princes

    25 Phoenix Guard
    - champion
    - banner


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  3. #2
    Benevolent Dictator CaptainSarathai's Avatar
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    Hey there HHow! Since this is only your third post, I guess it's still okay to welcome you to LO? Also, still fairly new to High Elves as well? They're a good army, and this is a good section of a great forum, so I hope you enjoy it here. Good job on the post too - you didn't break any rules and post individual costs, and it's actually readable (which is more than I can say for a lot of first-time lists these days).
    So on to the army I guess?

    Quote Originally Posted by hhow3859 View Post
    I know everybody bashes on the dragon's effectiveness, but I really want to build a 2000 point list with him...
    ...Please be harsh. I want to win games.
    Right off, this doesn't make sense. We do all bash the dragon, but that's because he's really just not a good option at all, especially in a smaller game like 2000pts. Around 2500, I might consider having a Dragon here or there, but to run a "big'un" like a Prince on a Moon Dragon in a game where he's going to take up a large percentage of your points - that's rough.
    I don't know what you normally face on the table, but there are armies with 120pt Cannons that will kill that Dragon outright. Remember that shots are randomized between the rider and mount. This might (will, most likely) change in 9th edition, but for the time being it's very likely that the shot will hit your Dragon and not the rider. Likewise, people can choose to target your Dragon in close combat, and they usually will. He's bigger, meaner, and will usually still have attacks left to make (the Prince will hit before almost anything else in the whole game - and certainly before the Dragon and it's Stomps) so it makes sense to down the big guy ASAP.
    If you just want a dragon in the army, then I'd suggest snagging a Dragon Mage. They can wear armor, they can throw spells, and they're cheap (for a Dragon). Use him the same way that you would use a Chariot, and you should be alright. He also won't be your General, so he's not worth as much to your opponent - this means he'll draw less firepower and hopefully last a while longer.
    For the record, this is not "theory" for me. I have used Dragons in my lists quite a bit, because the princes of Caledor dip their banners for no-one. But I'll be the first to tell you that it's probably the worst way to build an Elf army. If you want a look at what I consider the most competitive version of my Dragon-heavy lists, check out this thread:
    https://www.librarium-online.com/foru...ml#post2232906
    It's 2500pts and has 2 actual dragons, 2 converted dragons (Flamespyres) and a bunch of horsemen, just like Caledor should. It is not an army that I'd take if I were going to a tournament though.

    Prince on Moon Dragon
    - great weapon
    - golden crown
    - enchanted shield
    - potion of strength
    So you really think that you're going to need to swing with Strength9? Also, the Enchanted Shield will drop off in Combat, since a Greatweapon takes up two hands. The Golden Crown isn't bad, especially if you're planning on the fact that you're only going to eat 1/3 of all the Hits targeting this model.
    Keep in mind that you can now spend up to 50% of your army total on Lords, and another 50% on Heroes. I certainly don't advise this for any army, but in your case, if you're die-hard about sticking to this Dragon, I would be willing to spend as many points as I needed to make sure it worked for me.
    I'd ditch the Greatweapon and pick up one of the +Strength swords, like the Ogre or Giant Blade. You keep your ASF that way, get your rerolls, and can wield a Shield in the other hand. I'd also look into the IronCurse Icon. A 6+ Ward isn't much, but it's better than nothing when you're facing down those Cannons. It will carry on to your Dragon. I also suggest a reasonable Wardsave for your Prince, but that's only because he's your General. Some Magic Resistance somehow isn't bad either - the whole model is going out there alone, so getting hit with 2D6 hits from something like a Fireball is suddenly pretty scary.

    Mage of High Magic
    - level 2
    - dispel scroll
    - channeling staff
    One L2 Wizard isn't going to give you a lot of magic defense. You've also got 2 Arcane Items on this model, so either the Staff or Scroll will have to go. I'm not a fan of the Dispel Scroll in 8th, because you can't use it against Irresistible Force. If a spell is important enough, you'd better believe that your opponent will throw 6 dice at it and try to force it through, even if it might blow them up. You're really hoping that the result is high, but not Irresistible - the odds are slim. Once you accept that, then you realize that all that your scroll is really stopping, are the 'bait' spells - lower quality stuff that your opponent doesn't even really care if he casts or not.
    I'd much rather see a L4 Wizard.
    Also not a fan of High Magic. The lore is very spotty, and it only passes the Wardsave onto yourself and the unit. Phoenix Guard with a 3++ are good, don't get me wrong, but so are Phoenix Guard with a 4++, and the difference isn't worth allowing it to dictate your magic selection. High Elves love Lore of Shadow, because it makes their S3 and T3 a bit easier to stomach. However, Lore of Life is also good in a tiny army like this one. Cavalry can have lots of fun with Lore of Light, as well.

    18 Silverhelms
    - standard bearer
    - shields
    Trust me, add a Musician.

    5 Reavers
    - bows
    You've kept your Spears, right? Reavers will do more damage to enemy chaff units by charging them, if they can reach. 5 Bows won't make much of a dent in anything. In fact, probably no more than 1 wound on a Goblin over the course of a 6-turn game.

    2 lion chariots
    Eaaaaah... nah, I don't like them. Tell me, what do 2 Lion Chariots give you that you couldn't get from 2 Tirranoc Chariots and 5 Silver Helms? Fear? Not worth it. The S5 and S6 attacks are good, but the M6 is awful. This will be the last unit in your army to get into combat.
    I'd avoid Chariots altogether. Use these points to get more Eagles, or Reavers.

    Eagle
    - talons
    I can't really complain here. You can do the same job with Reavers, and they're in Core, but you have a full alotment of Core and I wouldn't really suggest shrinking that unit of Silvers. This is a good unit. Not sure if Armor Piercing is really worth it though - most cannon crews don't have armor saves, and anything else will just kill the bird eventually.

    5 Dragon Princes
    Nothing? No banner, no command? Nothing? As much as I love Caledor, I've never been horribly fond of Dragon Princes. If you want to win games, and truly win games, then I wouldn't take Dragon Princes at all. If you want them for theme or because you like the models, then keep them. They hit very hard, yes, but for the cost you're better off just taking more Silver Helms. Think - you need to have at least 25% of your army in Core already, and Dragon Princes aren't that much better than Silvers. You could add 6 Silvers, split your big unit into blocks of 12, drop your Reavers and get more Eagles (or something else). It would be like giving yourself 150pts for free, to play with.

    25 Phoenix Guard
    - champion
    - banner
    Why? The rest of your army is all mounted, and all very fast. Why are you fielding Phoenix Guard in your army at all? I mean, I know why you're doing it - but I want you to ask yourself if it's really worth sitting over 300pts in the back of your deployment zone just to keep your Wizard safe.
    If you're willing to advance with them, why not use the Banner of Swiftness on them, instead of the Talons on your Eagle? Phoenix Guard are only S4, they should be taking the Razor Banner.

    This is the problem with a Mage in a fast army like this - you have no safe place to put him. The best option, in my opinion, is to stick him into the second rank of a small unit of Silver Helms. Musicians, Standard Bearers, and Champions are forced to be in the front, and any other characters go behind them. So if your unit is only 3 models wide, your Wizard goes in the second rank. It's reasonably safe. You can make the unit wider (and safer) if you add a Battle Standard Bearer to the regiment, and give him something like the Banner of the World Dragon. You can also do this by taking Dragon Princes, and it's one of the better uses for them.

    To be honest though, my best suggestion for fielding a Dragon in a "winning" army, is to field a traditional "power-house" High Elf army, and then cut as little out as possible to fit in the Dragon. Use the Dragon in the same way that you would use a regiment of Cavalry, and you should be okay. You'll win less than you would with the 'typical' High Elf army, but you'll still have a Dragon in the list.
    Hopefully, 9th edition will fix the "Cannon vs. Dragon" problem somehow (probably with the combined statlines, although that probably won't solve it) and then having a Prince on the back of a big angry Dragon will be cool again. For right now though, there are much, much scarier things that we can do with our army.
    Pts Values for AoS here!

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    CaptainSarathai, that was brilliant. Thanks for the detail and for being so blunt. That's exactly what I'm looking for.

    Yes, I am new to High Elves, and new to Games Workshop as well! I'm coming from playing 2 years of historicals. Translation: I'm a noob.

    I'm going to post a modified list tonight, taking your suggestions and the limitations of my model collection into account. If you feel like it, please feel free to wreck my other two army list threads. I've posted a 2000pt shooty and a 2000pt infantry combat.

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  6. #4
    LO Zealot d_k_patt's Avatar
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    Hey there I will echo what cap said a bit. I love dragons half the reason I started playing elves. I think they will make a comeback when they do joint profiles. I had to stretch a list to 4000pts the other day and decided to take a star dragon it was carnage and main thing a cannon couldn't one shot him.

    If you are determined to take the moon dragon I find best combo is Prince ogre blade, talisman of preservation, iron curse icon, enchanted shield, heavy armour, lion cloak (if there is points). This gives you a 1+ against shooting (which helps against the prince being shot of the dragons back) 2+ in CC and a 4+ ward and a 6+ ward for the dragon against the war machines.

    I also agree with cap if your doing cav go all the way that said I have found high elves power in in infantry. for the lion chariot you can get 10 white lions which is silly good you need to get numbers up so I would suggest you take a unit of 30-35 spears 5x6/7 nice and deep then 2 units of lions and 2 units of reavers for chalf flanks. this will allow you to field enough troops to make a fight of it.

    Like cap said you need a level 4 wizard. My fav combo outside the queen banner combo is a level 4 high with book of ashur tali of endurance you are at +6 to cast and +5 to dispel.

    I didn't see is cap if cap had mentioned it but the high elves really should take a bsb. common load out is sword of might, shield of the mywyrm (that's not how it is spelt) I would stick him in the spears give them some fight.

    Of course this is just advice and could be horribly wrong for you (or in general lol).

    welcome to warhammer I hope you enjoy it

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