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  1. #1
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    2,400 P Tournament List (All thoughts Welcome!)

    I'm entering my first tournament next month and have put this 2,400p list together. I have deliberately not taken Phoenix Guard as (although they are obviously good) I don't want to just sit bunkered up, so have taken a more attacking list. Any insights would be helpful!

    Archmage (level 4)
    Lore of Life, Book of Hoeth, dispel scroll
    Prince (on Steed with barding)
    Dragon Armour, Enchanted Shield,
    Giant Blade, Dawnstone
    Mage
    Lore of beasts, channelling staff
    Noble BSB
    Heavy Armour, Shield, Handweapon
    Banner of the World Dragon
    23 x Seaguard (FC)

    5 x Reavers
    5 x Reavers
    1 x Lion Chariot
    20 x White Lions (FC)
    14 x Swordmasters (FC)
    5 x Swordmasters (Champion)
    10 x Dragon Princes (FC)
    Starlance on the Drakemaster
    Gleaming pennant
    1 x Bolt thrower

    So basically, Prince goes with the dragon princes (giving them a bit more durability after initial charge). Arch mage and BSB go in the Sea Guard, and the mage goes in the White Lions (he will always have wyssan's to cast on his own unit or the swordmasters depending on the situation). I'm thinking possibly drop the 5 swordmasters for another bolt thrower, but apart from that I'm fairly happy. What do you think?


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  3. #2
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    Hey - welcome to the forum! So far, everything in your post looks good, except that you put it into the main High Elf section instead of in with the Army Lists - it's no big deal, I can move it there for you.
    On to the real bread-and-butter of the post though: your list!

    Quote Originally Posted by jakpayne View Post
    I'm entering my first tournament next month and have put this 2,400p list together. I have deliberately not taken Phoenix Guard as (although they are obviously good) I don't want to just sit bunkered up, so have taken a more attacking list. Any insights would be helpful!
    It might be worth pointing out, depending on how tight you are on models, that even Phoenix Guard don't just "bunker up". High Elves don't play a slow game - we need to get into combat and start punching faces as soon as possible. Phoenix Guard just give you a block of survivable, ranked-up troops who can weather the hail of cannonballs, arrows, and lightning bolts that you'll take on your way across the table. Not having them in a list isn't a problem (I don't have any in mine, usually) but if you're short on models, it would be better to field Phoenix Guard than to "stretch" the rest of your collection out to 2400pts.
    [TABLE="width: 562"]
    [TR]
    [TD]Archmage (level 4)
    Lore of Life, Book of Hoeth, dispel scroll[/TD]
    [/TR]
    The Book and Scroll are both Arcane items, so unfortunately, you can't have them both. I'd ditch the Scroll altogether, and try to get a Wardsave on this guy - he'll need it. Losing your primary caster stinks, especially when he takes any chance of dispelling the enemy with him (+4 is really important). Also, you might want to think about why you're using the Lore of Life. It's not a bad lore, but Shadow and Light are usually more popular, and with good reason.

    [TR]
    [TD]Prince (on Steed with barding)
    Dragon Armour, Enchanted Shield,
    Giant Blade, Dawnstone [/TD]
    [/TR]
    Is this guy your general, or is your Wizard? Dragon Armor and the Enchanted Shield is a very expensive way to get a 3+ save and a 2+ against Fire. You could run Heavy Armor, Shield, and the Dragon Helm, and save yourself 6pts. I know it's not much, but every bit helps in a tournament. What you really need though, is a Wardsave - again, especially if this guy is your General.

    [TR]
    [TD]Mage
    Lore of beasts, channeling staff[/TD]
    [/TR]
    Odd, what's your reasoning for Lore of Beasts? Also, Channeling Staff, or Dispel Scroll - since you can't carry the Scroll and Book together on your Archy, you might want to move the Scroll down here.

    [TR]
    [TD]Noble BSB
    Heavy Armour, Shield, Handweapon
    Banner of the World Dragon
    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    Any unit that you're probably running this guy with, can carry the BotWD on their own. Your BSB needs defense - he's worth a lot to your opponent, and keeping him alive is very important. Wardsaves are really the name of the game here!
    [TR]
    [TD]23 x Seaguard (FC)

    5 x Reavers
    5 x Reavers
    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    Can't complain about the Reavers - they're great units. But why Sea Guard? Firstly, are you remembering to give them Shields? They don't come with them 'standard' like Spear Elves. Secondly, would you really pay 3pts/model to give your Spears a bow? Your Sea Guard are usually going to be ranked up, so you aren't going to get to shoot with all of them. You said it yourself, you don't want to be "bunkered", and Elves need to move quickly, so you're also probably going to be Marching a lot, and then you can't shoot at all!
    Most people consider Sea Guard to be our worst Core choice, because they pay too much to be able to do two jobs that really don't mix (standing still and shooting, or moving up into combat). I'd either take Spears, or if you put your Phoenix Guard back in, take Silver Helms instead. If you want to shoot, I guess you could take Archers, but High Elf shooting really isn't very good anyways.

    [TR]
    [TD]1 x Lion Chariot [/TD]
    [/TR]
    Chariots can't march, so this guy is really slow. I know that he seems to hit hard, with the high strength on the Lions and the S6 on the crew, but you can almost get two Tirranoc Chariots for this price. Chariots are all about getting the Impact Hits - if they don't kill it or break it on the Charge, they're worthless after that. Two TCs would get double the Impact Hits, at the same Strength. They would also have the same toughness, and twice as many wounds. Not to mention, they could split their attacks between multiple units, or, if your opponent kills one with a lucky cannonball, you'd still have one left.

    [TR]
    [TD]20 x White Lions (FC)
    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    7x3 with the Wizard isn't a bad formation. A bit small, I might try dropping the 5 Swordmasters and putting 3 of them here, so that you can go 8x3 or 6x4 with your Wizard, just to give you a few more wounds. It might also be worth handing these guys the Banner of Flame, so that you can deal with Regening beasties like the Hellpit Abomination and Trolls.

    [TR]
    [TD]14 x Swordmasters (FC)
    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    14 is way too small for Swordmasters, and if nobody is standing with them, then they don't need the Champion. These guys aren't like WhiteLions - their save against shooting isn't nearly as good, and they're not Stubborn. Not to mention that against almost anything in the game, White Lions will actually get a few more kills than the Swordmasters will. Most veteran players consider White Lions the better unit, especially since they both cost the same amount of points.

    [TR][TD]5 x Swordmasters (Champion)[/TD]
    [/TR]
    This just doesn't make sense at all. What are these guys for, and why aren't they part of the bigger unit of 14? Small units like this don't work in Fantasy anymore - lose 2 models and you have to take a Panic check, and you're just handing your opponent a practically guaranteed 70-odd Victory Points.

    [TR]
    [TD]10 x Dragon Princes (FC)
    Starlance on the Drakemaster
    Gleaming pennant
    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    Silver Helms are generally better at going into ranks than the Dragon Princes are; you're paying for two things when you buy Dragon Princes - the 2+ against Fire, and the extra attack (the 6+ Ward isn't really worth much). When you're in ranks, you lose the second attack in the back rank, you might as well only have 1A each. The 2+ against Fire isn't bad, but there's not a whole lot out there (other than Lore of Metal) that is going to have Flaming attacks and worry you.
    Once you lose 1 knight, you lose your Rank Bonus, can't Disrupt for flank charges, and generally might as well just be in a single rank. Why not just field two blocks of 5 or 6? Again, if you want to go with ranks, I would replace the Seaguard in your Core with Silver Helms, and that would actually free you up quite a few points to spend on your Special/Rare section.

    Also, I wouldn't bother with the Starlance on the DrakeMaster - it costs a lot of points, and remember that you're already at S5 when you charge (that's a -2 to armor). If you wanted, you could drop the Star Lance, spend an extra 15pts, and get the Razor Banner, and your entire regiment would put people at -3 for their Saves, and it would work off the charge.

    [TR]
    [TD]1 x Bolt thrower
    Eh, it's a Bolt Thrower, can't complain much there.
    I think that your army is a bit small, really. I don't know how big your collection is, or what you're options would be, but it really feels like maybe you don't have enough models to make a 2400pt list, so you tossed in a couple of characters and gave everyone full options and upgrades to "stretch" the army out to 2400pts. That's not going to work out well for you in a tournament - tournament lists are usually very well tested, and the players have "trimmed the fat" off of everything. If it's not utterly vital to winning the game, it's gone.
    High Elf armies are usually "character light", so that they can get more bodies into the regiments. A Lvl4 Wizard as the General, and a BSB is usually enough, unless you're trying for a very specialized build like a "Light Coven" or a Deathstar. We're already outnumbered by almost every army in the game, thanks to even our Spearmen costing double what most other armies pay for them, and when we start stuffing characters into the list, we are cutting those numbers down even further.
    For example - I understand that your Prince adds a lot of "oomph" to your Dragon Princes, but for the price you're paying for him, you could also just take a whole second regiment of Dragon Princes. Charge both of those into the same target and you'll do a lot more damage than that Prince would. And just like the 2 TC instead of 1 WLC, you could split their damage over several units, and wouldn't be putting all of your points into one big target for your opponent.

    If I went back through your list and "trimmed the fat" off of it, without even dropping any characters or models at all, I could find you 250pts that you could use to add in Wardsaves and extra models to your units. Most tournament players would consider that 250pts to be "dead weight" in their lists - it would be like showing up to the game with just a 2,150pt army - you wouldn't do that, right?

    You're also lacking Wardsaves and other good defenses on a lot of your characters, and that's going to come back to bit you when you get to the tournament. Almost every general and BSB that you meet will have at least a 4+ Wardsave (some armies can even get a 3+ or better), and if it can have an armor save, it will probably have a 1+. Good sources for Wardsaves on Elf characters would be:
    Armor of Destiny - for your BSB, Prince, and anyone else who can wear armor. This lets you carry a Shield, or a Two-Handed Weapon as well.
    Talisman of Preservation - usually goes onto your Wizard, since he can't wear any armor.
    Shield of the Merwyrm - stupidly cheap item, and basically a 4+ Wardsave in combat. Only works on foot and in combat though, and only sometimes, so this is best for a secondary character or if you're trying to cut corners and go really cheap on your BSB. You can use this with a Magic Weapon though, and still get the parry save.

    I'm not trying to tear your list apart to be mean - I've played in a bunch of tournaments over the years. I used to even travel and stay at hotels to go to good ones, and I still play with the same group of very competitive people that I met during those events. What you've got here has all of the theory for a good list, and probably works really well in friendly games and might even finish at the middle of the pack for a tournament if you play really well in each of your games. But you want to make winning tournament games as easy as possible, so that a "really good game" means that you might actually table your opponent and walk away with all the Victory Points. In most of the tournaments that I've been to, the top 3 guys tabled or almost tabled at least one of their opponents during the day. Looking at your list, I would start with the following core of models, based on how you're already playing your list:

    L4 Wizard
    - because everyone needs one. This guy is probably going to be your general.

    Noble BSB w/ Armor of Destiny, Halberd, Barded Steed
    - He's doing what your Prince used to do for your Dragon Princes; adding "oomph"

    9 Silver Helms w/ Shields, Full Command
    - like your old Dragon Princes, with -1 model so that your BSB fits nicely. If you could, getting 11 of these guys would be even better, and as many as 17 would be okay.

    5 Reavers
    5 Reavers
    - your chaff and dummy drops, just like you have them now.

    20 White Lions w/ Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon
    - I'd like to see 23 here, I won't lie. Put your Wizard here, on the corner so that he hits as few people as possible if he Miscasts. Everyone gets the 2+ Wardsave though, so they're pretty safe if he starts going nuclear.

    21 White Lions w/ Musician, Banner of Flame
    - Again, I'd rather see a big unit, but this is pretty close to your 14+5 Swordmasters

    1-2 RBTs
    - You seem to have at least two of these, and they're good for anti-chaff shooting, and softening up targets for the rest of your army. You could drop them both if you needed the points though, I usually don't field any shooting in my armies, and it's not that uncommon.

    That won't put you close to 2400pts, you'll still have room to fill it out with things like Chariots or making some of those units larger. It's also got the same "feel" that your current army has: a "Knight Bus" with some serious hitting power, and two large-ish blocks of combat slaughter-houses. It's a good start for any basic tournament army, and the fact that you came pretty darn close to getting the exact same thing (albeit with slightly different units) should be encouraging.
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  4. #3
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    Thanks for all the ideas! definitely a lot of food for thought here. I want to keep using the swordmasters (because I have the models and I've found they can be quite brutal). Definitely putting the BotWD on the unit rather than the BSB so he can take magic items is a no-brainer. And need to get some wards on the characters. But I like the look of this list, definitely got a lot of attacking potential, which is what I like to see.

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