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Thread: Thinking of Starting High Elves? Ask your newbie questions here!

  1. #41
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    uhhhh.... captain, you can give a single unit of spears a magical banner. But it is a nice list that won't be toooooo exepensive (this is Gamesworkshop after all) to buy/build

    They totally need to put Bagpipers in for the high elves.
    X amount of points- any army with a bagpiper in them wins automatically based on sheer awesomeness.

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  3. #42
    Benevolent Dictator CaptainSarathai's Avatar
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    I never actually noticed that after it changed from 'First Among Equals'. Anyways, in that case, the Razor is still too expensive, and the Flaming Banner is a choice you'd have to make based on your meta. Currently, fighting in 3 ranks, the Swordmasters get just as many attacks as the Spears at 4 (moreso in this list because they're also 6-wide). Those are all at S5, which is good for popping Trolls and the like. Spears would only really want to carry the banner if the types of regen beasties you are facing were only able to be wounded on 6s (Sphinxes, Stegadons, but with Regen). Then it wouldn't matter what the strength was, it would all be down to number of attacks and number of 6's you could roll. Spears would generate more hits with the rerolls, therefore likely more 6's To Wound, and would be a good choice.
    But hey - I'd rather have my Flaming in the Swordmasters. For popping Trolls and their ilk. Less-tough things which still Regen.
    Pts Values for AoS here!

    Nippon Armybook: Isuu, Scribd, and free at Google Docs

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    Hi I'm getting back into the hobby at the same time as a friend mate. I got the IoB set and I already had Spears Archers, bolt thrower and Silver Helms on top of that. This weekend I played a 2000pt battle with a friend who was proxying lizzies. (We decided we may aswell go big enough to include all the things we have been drooling over and plan to buy.)

    We had a great game even though he pretty solidly beat me, I managed to kill or rout virtually everything he had except the Temple Guard and Slann MP. It was our first game in 8th, we played a few in what I think was 6th edition? (When the Empire vs. Orcs set was brand new). So even though we had watched a ton of Battle Reps it feels like we spent the whole game constantly checking and re-checking every special rule. Inevitably we played some wrong, we forgot some, for example almost every single fear, terror test before a CC (luckily upon belatedly rolling them, all were passed)

    (ASF + Great Weapons, Frenzy, Stomp, THunderstomp, Terror, Fear, Poisoned Attacks, Monsters, Monstrous Beasts, Monstrous Cavalry, Winds of magic, dispelling without a wizard, flame weapon scattering into a close combat, skirmishers, Killing Blow, Riders and mounts having different targets)

    I am slowly looking up everything that we were still unsure of and I am finding the answers in the rulebook even though I couldn't at the time, so I wont bore you with those questions. I think we may even have learned more because we are both newbs and being forced to read and discuss rules might be more beneficial than just being told and rushed. "Now you need 4's and 3's"

    I'm looking for some tips list building:
    This is what I used last weekend.


    It's based mostly on what I already have and what I would like to purchase soon. Both esthetics and pricewise.

    I like a big block of spears. I hate the look of archers.
    What I'm thinking of purchasing: Sisters, Frost Phoenix, a few more SM (5), 20 WL OR 20 PG

    Archmage: Lvl 4, Talisman of Preservation (265)


    Noble: BSB, Sword of Might, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Shield of Merwyrm. (139)

    Core (629)

    31 Spears. Standard, Musician.
    5 Reavers
    10 Silver helms Shields, Standard, Musician.

    Special (507)

    20 White Lions. Razor Standard + Full Command

    14 Swordmasters

    Rare (450)

    Frost nix
    Bolt Thrower
    10 Sisters of Avelorn


    I have a tonne of questions about listbuilding, at the moment I am just trying to copy others' lists to a certain extent, until I get a few games under my belt so I can get a feel for what I like and don't like. I won't be making too many impulse buys because I know I have too much still to paint.

    I used to have nightmares about WYSIWYG back in 40k where I tended to always model the wrong thing and it would screw me over in games. I have noticed that things are slightly more relaxed in Fantasy, I wont be much too scared to glue everything for fear of getting it wrong.
    Fantasy is almost at the opposite extreme where there's a plethora of magic items and standards and the choices are overwhelming.

    So the question of modelling a Standard Bearer and musician or not doesn't really matter because I wont be forced to use him as such...right?

    My main question though is where to position characters such as the BSB and especially the mage. I've heard of the term mage-bunker which I assume is meant for phoenix guard but even then unless he is in the second rank due to tonnes of other characters he will still be an easy kill in CC. Should I put him in with WL Spears or Sisters (Sisters might be out of range for many spells) In our game I had put him in with my White Lions but he got killed in my 2nd turn even though I realised my mistake and tried to Walk Between Worlds and challenge. (That and unlucky rolls on saves didn't help)

    Sorry for long first post.
    I tried to include spoiler tags to make it seem shorter but that doesn't seem to work here.

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  6. #44
    RAWR! KROXIGOR!! kroxigor01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AesirUesugi View Post
    So the question of modelling a Standard Bearer and musician or not doesn't really matter because I wont be forced to use him as such...right?
    No one in a casual game should care. Just put the command models in the back rank to make things clear if they are supposed to be rank and file.

    My main question though is where to position characters such as the BSB and especially the mage. I've heard of the term mage-bunker which I assume is meant for phoenix guard but even then unless he is in the second rank due to tonnes of other characters he will still be an easy kill in CC. Should I put him in with WL Spears or Sisters (Sisters might be out of range for many spells) In our game I had put him in with my White Lions but he got killed in my 2nd turn even though I realised my mistake and tried to Walk Between Worlds and challenge. (That and unlucky rolls on saves didn't help)
    Dedicated bunkers aren't always necessary. Planning a turn ahead and shuffling the characters to where is effective but safe is the key. If you happen to take some units that are often behind the others (maybe a small unit of archers) you can have more options in this regard.

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  8. #45
    Benevolent Dictator CaptainSarathai's Avatar
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    Welcome to the forum! More of a Takeda fan myself (and there's a link to an unofficial Nippon book in my signature if you're interested) but I guess we can still be friends, Mr. Uesugi
    At any rate, good to see you followed all the forum rules about points costs and such, and that you came to the High Elf section (one of the more/most active sections of the boards, and full of veteran members). The site's pretty friendly in general, I think you'll enjoy it here. But on to replying to your post. In blue.

    Quote Originally Posted by AesirUesugi View Post
    We had a great game even though he pretty solidly beat me, I managed to kill or rout virtually everything he had except the Temple Guard and Slann MP.
    Depending on what he brought, that's not bad! Where did you mess up?!

    It was our first game in 8th, we played a few in what I think was 6th edition? (When the Empire vs. Orcs set was brand new).
    That's 6th, yep. I started playing just a bit before you did it seems, and I still have two of those sets lurking about in my Empire and O&G armies. Ah, nostalgia

    (ASF + Great Weapons, Frenzy, Stomp, THunderstomp, Terror, Fear, Poisoned Attacks, Monsters, Monstrous Beasts, Monstrous Cavalry, Winds of magic, dispelling without a wizard, flame weapon scattering into a close combat, skirmishers, Killing Blow, Riders and mounts having different targets)
    That's probably where you went wrong then. ASF is sweet, and really puts us over on Lizards. Same for dispelling without Wizards. And who the heck brought Monstrous Cavalry?! Neither army has these. Riders and Mounts also have to have the same targets unless they're Ridden Monsters. Also, in terms of scattering templates into combat, the only precedent is that cannons cannot be fired at a target that might cause them to hit a unit engaged in combat - the rule of thumb therefore is that no warmachine may be fired at a target which might bring it into contact with a regiment in melee (maximum scatter)

    I am slowly looking up everything that we were still unsure of and I am finding the answers in the rulebook even though I couldn't at the time, so I wont bore you with those questions.
    That's what the RULES section is for!

    I'm looking for some tips list building:
    This is what I used last weekend.


    It's based mostly on what I already have and what I would like to purchase soon. Both esthetics and pricewise.

    I like a big block of spears. I hate the look of archers.
    Good, because we mostly just hate Archers here. There are a few supporters who use them for "finishing off" targets already wounded by magic or RBTs, but you can certainly get away without using an Archers at all. They just aren't effective for shooting anything worth shooting at.

    What I'm thinking of purchasing: Sisters, Frost Phoenix, a few more SM (5), 20 WL OR 20 PG

    Archmage: Lvl 4, Talisman of Preservation (265)
    And Book of Hoeth. Trust me, it's awesome. Otherwise, yep, bog-standard wizard.

    Noble: BSB, Sword of Might, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Shield of Merwyrm. (139)
    Golden Crown's a bit overrated. Nice 2++ against the first hit, you can get that with the Charmed Shield (though you'd lose Merwyrm) for half as many points. And that's how you know you're over-spending for it.

    Core (629)

    31 Spears. Standard, Musician.
    5 Reavers
    10 Silver helms Shields, Standard, Musician.
    For a 2k game, this is too much in your Core. Elf Core is pretty terrible, with the exception of the Silver Helms and Reavers, maybe the Archers if you're one of those crazies. The Spears are good, but Phoenix Guard do it better. Silvers give us a regiment with solid armor, and believe it or not they hit harder than Swordmasters or White Lions when they charge (after the charge they're utter pants, but on the charge they're gorgeous). Get used to your Reavers - they are extremely versatile units and you'll learn to love them after they save your bacon a few times (mine were just the difference between me winning a game by 300pts, or losing it by 1000, as an example)

    Special (507)

    20 White Lions. Razor Standard + Full Command
    Who are you facing with a 3+ save?! Most of the time, the -3 to Armor from the S6 is more than enough to ignore somebody's save. Unless you're up against Chaos Warriors suited up to take the most knocks of anyone in the game, or maybe Knights, you're not going to the need the Razor. Also, no need for full commands unless you have a character to protect. Champions can eat challenges for the characters, or issue them to keep big scary "blender builds" away from your unit (for a turn). Champs are usually the last thing that I spend points on though.

    14 Swordmasters
    A tiny unit, and White Lions will kill more of ANYTHING unless it's T3 with less than a 3+ save. Not by much, mind, but they're more lethal. The Lions are also Stubborn and harder to kill with Shooting, which makes them better in a small regiment like this where they're not Steadfast and are prone to Panic if too many of them catch arrows to the knee. If you're considering buying more SM, I'd spend that money on Lions, and then swap your current regiment of Lions for those Phoenix Guard you were thinking of.

    Rare (450)

    Frost nix
    Love it. Most people have sort of phased them out over time, but they're always going to be a solid unit choice. They definitely help make your Spears a valid option.
    Bolt Thrower
    MORE!
    10 Sisters of Avelorn
    Eh. Flaming shooting is good, but only because it strips Regen from the big beasties before the RBTs can rip them up. You pay for the Flaming - point for point, you can expect your RBTs to do just as much or more damage. For now, unless you get more RBTs, I would swap these girls FOR more RBTs. Only when you're maxed on RBTs, or nearly so, should you consider grabbing a block of Sisters (unless you have some crazy plan).


    I have a tonne of questions about listbuilding, at the moment I am just trying to copy others' lists to a certain extent, until I get a few games under my belt so I can get a feel for what I like and don't like. I won't be making too many impulse buys because I know I have too much still to paint.
    Good way to go about it, nobody is going to fault you for that.

    So the question of modelling a Standard Bearer and musician or not doesn't really matter because I wont be forced to use him as such...right?
    Units should have their command elements WSIWYG. You'll tend to end up with extra models anyways, so it's good to have one on hand. If you have the IoB set, you've already got the Seaguard command models - they would work. The best way to think about it, is that your opponent is going to see your front rank, and that's all he really cares about. If your front rank has shields, and the models behind do not, it's not as big a deal. Commands go in the front rank, so you should try to make sure that your opponent is certain that you do/don't have a command.

    My main question though is where to position characters such as the BSB and especially the mage. I've heard of the term mage-bunker which I assume is meant for phoenix guard but even then unless he is in the second rank due to tonnes of other characters he will still be an easy kill in CC. Should I put him in with WL Spears or Sisters (Sisters might be out of range for many spells) In our game I had put him in with my White Lions but he got killed in my 2nd turn even though I realised my mistake and tried to Walk Between Worlds and challenge. (That and unlucky rolls on saves didn't help)
    Remember that Walk Between Worlds doesn't make you Ethereal for the whole turn - just for the Move (in case you were thinking that WBW would make you immune to Mundane attacks).
    As for where to put your characters, usually you want them out of the combat units. Putting the wizards with your Sisters can work, since you're normally within 24" of the enemy anyways, if you want to shoot with Sisters, and your friendlies should be between you and them. Having a good Ward on your characters is important though, so you can survive a few rounds of combat. There are tricks as well, like dumping your wizards out the back on the turn before you intend to see combat and then staying close to your regiment, or standing between two regiments, 1" behind and with just 1" on either side. It can end disastrously if you Flee, or if the enemy gets around your unit or targets you with magic, but it's sometimes better than running face first into a wall of beat-sticks. Wherever you pu them, they're at risk, so just pray to the dice gods and hope your guys can keep their heads down.


    Sorry for long first post.
    I tried to include spoiler tags to make it seem shorter but that doesn't seem to work here.
    Nope, no spoiler-tags, and don't worry - I'm renowned for my long posts. One of our users brews a pot of coffee before he sits down to respond to my rambles!
    Copying other players' armies for you first few games isn't bad, but make sure that you understand why they took the units and options that they did. I'm sure that you know from your 40k experience that everyone develops their own playstyle. Our book has a lot of units worth taking, and only a few that you should try to avoid. Which units end up in an army therefore, has a lot to do with what players are looking for in their force. This can be influenced by the type of opponents you face most often (like you, I see a lot of Lizardmen in my games), as well as by how you play the game. If you think that you need/want a unit that the general consensus advises against, try it anyways and see if it fits your style. If it doesn't work, you can always save your money.

    Good luck - remember, post up any rules questions you or your group has, and we'll try to answer them with page numbers and the like. We'll also critique army lists or answer/respond to any other thoughts/questions you've got about the army or game. And again, welcome to LO!
    Pts Values for AoS here!

    Nippon Armybook: Isuu, Scribd, and free at Google Docs

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  10. #46
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    Thanks for all of the feedback!

    He had a list with a big block of Saurus spears, Slann MP in unit of 20 TG, 2 units of Ripperdactyls, Salamander, 2x 10 Skink skirmishers, Scar Vet on Carnosaur, Skink Priest.

    In the game it was my Archmage dying due to a wound on Turn 1 Miscast and then losing to a completely normal Saurus Champion in 2 turns of challenge. (Mage was in with the WL) I figured I should challenge because I counted 10 attacks that could be directed at my AM by the unit if I didn't vs. only 3 in a challenge. Meanwhile the White Lions killed 10 on the first turn and 9 on the second, with the Swordmasters contributing 7 kills in the next turn to absolutely destroy the unit around them. It wasn't the luckiest rolling in the world for the wards though so I'll grant that.

    In the end it came down to the fact that we thought for one turn that you didn't get dispel dice without a wizard, allowing his SLann to buff his Temple GUard with 5+ regen and +1 Str, +1 T. They then proceeded to wipe the floor with the White Lions and the big spear unit containing BSB on subsequent turns. At this point we looked up how Victory Points worked and he realized that he could win the game by keeping his big unit alive. After all he had killed my BSB, and General and if I didn't do the same I had lost. He started backing it up trying to stay out of charge range and not showing his rear to the now vulnerable Slann. Nevertheless on Turn 6 I had a heroic final showdown charge lined up with my Frosty in the rear on the SLann, 2 remaining Silver Helms and 8 Swordmasters vs something like 8 or 10 TG and SLann. However the Swordmasters didn't make the charge. THe SLann still had all 5 wounds so I needed a 4 on the Winds of magic for +1 attack on the Pheonix to kill the Slann and didn't get it. Despite winning the combat and Frosty putting 4 wounds on the Slann (we were both unlucky with wards), Cold Blooded won the day.

    As to the list it was more of a what I have now instead of a what am I building towards:

    The reason for some of the choices, for example going over 500pts in Core and the Swordmasters is because I took them because I have them in my collection. For the Swordmasters I read up about 7th and apparently they used to be THE unit killing everything and denying attacks, I can imagine everyone must have gotten bored of them by now. I'm new though and not sick of them so I want to use them. Also I find that spending more and buying a 3rd box of WL which I would have to do if I went over 20 is a bit too expensive for me at this early stage.

    Putting the Razor Standard in was one of those things where I saw everyone had them in lists so I put them in and then as soon as I started rolling the dice and counting the Save reduction I saw it was a waste.

    With the Reavers, I still need to learn to re-direct, I didn't really know what I was doing and basically all I did was "re-direct" the enemy into my rear, delaying them for 1 turn though. I would have killed the Ripperdactyls if the last rider didn't make several 6+ saves. In hindsight I could have used Frenzy's forced overrun to completely put them out of position.

    For the rules:

    All the ones I listed I think we played mostly correctly, especially towards the end, we just had to double and triple check stuff because I'd forget what we just read 5 minutes earlier. If we hadn't played ASF and Cold Blooded correctly especially things would have been much different.

    Yeah I think I misremembered how flamers work I didn't remember them scattering in 40k (maybe they do there too but it's been a while) It's when I read the rules that I saw they scattered and then we just said screw it. Makes sense though that they would follow the rule of not being allowed to intentionally hit a unit. If you know it might scatter 10 then can't point it anywhere where it might hit your unit on that dice roll even if it's 1/6 chance. Pre-measuring and all that.

    Monstrous Cavalry I may be wrong but I meant the Ripperdactyls he had 2 units of, might just be Flying Cavalry though. I don't have the Lizards book here but those guys had a list of rules long as my arm.
    Edit: just found that the Terradon Riders count as Monstrous Cavalry in the Bestiary of the BRB.

    Like I said google and purely reading the Rule book without time pressure is answering most of the questions I still had. I had somehow completely missed the FAQ pages after the Errata and found what we suspected, that Killing Blow did not count for Stomp attacks.
    Last edited by AesirUesugi; January 10th, 2014 at 00:22.

  11. #47
    RAWR! KROXIGOR!! kroxigor01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AesirUesugi View Post
    Monstrous Cavalry I may be wrong but I meant the Ripperdactyls he had 2 units of, might just be Flying Cavalry though. I don't have the Lizards book here but those guys had a list of rules long as my arm.
    Edit: just found that the Terradon Riders count as Monstrous Cavalry in the Bestiary of the BRB.
    You are correct. Flying Cavalry are always Fast Cavalry, Skirmishers and Flyers and Ripperdactyls are Monstrous Beasts, so they are also Monstrous Cavalry. Be glad he didn't bring Terradons who are much better against Elves.

  12. #48
    Benevolent Dictator CaptainSarathai's Avatar
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    Yeah, that was dumb - forgot about the new stuff. Guess the old Terradons would've been MonCav too, back in 7th before there was such a thing. Cool.
    Pts Values for AoS here!

    Nippon Armybook: Isuu, Scribd, and free at Google Docs

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    I love the Swordmasters, but I can tell you from experience that they die to a stiff breeze. No joke, if your opponent sneezes, you'll lose them by the handful. Especially to shooting, which is why they face them the 6+ that does nothing. White Lions at least will survive to see combat. And S6 is the sweet spot. So take them if you like them. I always have them painted and ready, but now I'd prefer more survivability.
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