Are Lion Chariots over priced or are Chaos Chariots under priced? - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
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    Are Lion Chariots over priced or are Chaos Chariots under priced?

    I was comparing Lion Chariots to their Chaos Warrior counterparts and IMHO the Chaos Chariots are very under priced AND the lion chariot is over priced!

    The CW chariot to start with is 10 points cheaper... Then you give it T5 (vs lion T4).. oh and make it a CORE choice. Then give it a 3+ save vs Lion 4+ oh and Scythed wheels where the lion has NONE. The Warrior crew has 4 St5 attacks while the Elven crew has 2x ST6 attacks at initiative. Lastly the steeds... the lions have 4 St5 attacks vs the CW 2 at St4...

    So for 10 more points on the lion chariot you get -1T -1AS no scythed wheels, 2 less crew attacks (but at +1 ST), and 2 additional steed attacks at +1 St. (Meaning the crew and steed attacks are roughly a wash).... The biggest advantage is the unit is stubborn.


    Ok for comparison lets look at the beast chariot...which is 2/3 less the cost of a lion chariot.

    Beast chariots have the same ST5 T4 and 4+ AS as the lion chariot and is CORE. The crew has 1 S3 and 1 S6 attack and the steeds have 2 S4 attacks. So in comparison the Lion chariot would be 1 S6 vs S3 attack better for crew and for the steeds have 4 S5 attacks vs 2 S4. To my way of thinking the Lion Chariot should be about 10-15 points more than the beast chariot... and the chaos chariot should be at least 20-30 points more than it is currently priced.

    Lets look at the Orc Chariot (again only 2/3 the cost of a lion chariot but is now Special)... S5 T5 4+ AS AND scythed wheels (of course). Crew has 2x S3 (but with choppas is S4) and steeds have 2 S3 (but on the charge is S5)

    Now lets get really obscene... Goblin chariot. You could take 2 of these and still have plenty of points to add an extra crew and wolf to the mix. SO to even the points I will give the stats of having 2 wolf chariots with extra crew and wolf.
    S5 T4 5+AS AND scythed wheels, 2 crews are 8 S3 attacks (but on charge the spears make that S4... plus they also carry bows), the mounts would make 6 S3 attacks... the only negative is that these chariots have 3 wounds vs the lion chariot with 4 (but oh wait... they are half the cost... so that's W6 vs W4.)


    To have three of these beautiful Lion Chariot models sitting on my shelf gathering dust is a testament to how out of whack the point cost for this model is (and all chariots in the elf army). I would probably still keep this on the shelf if it was a Core choice...but would at least start to consider using it in a friendly game. Chaos chariots, on the other hand, are so under pointed that often competitive armies will wield more of these than chaos warriors(or make all their core requirements in chariots)... and why not? There are too many better units in the HE special category and at the current point cost makes this unit a complete albatross.

    So here is a plea to GW.... Adjust the cost of this model in your eratta! Until this model's points reflect its true table top value (I would suggest 90 points for Special or 100 points if core) you will NEVER see these played... and that is a shame because they are truly beautiful models.

    Last edited by TimA; August 31st, 2014 at 19:51.

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  3. #2
    Benevolent Dictator CaptainSarathai's Avatar
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    Eeeeeeeeeah..... first I'm going to say that I am not (and never was) a fan of the Lion Chariot. However, I will say that for what it does compared to a Chaos Chariot, it is on par in terms of points. Stubborn, and the S6, plus the Lion attacks are worth it from a strictly "fill in the formula" sort of way. Comparing the Chaos Chariots to the others you've listed off, it's a fairly priced model.

    The reason that you see Chaos players using their Chariots is because Warriors don't mesh well with most army lists. The same is true of Lion Chariots. The High Elves don't really need a slow, non-ranked, heavy hitting regiment. The Stubborn on the Lion Chariot is a bit naff, because they're too pricey to make good chaff, and too fragile to last long enough to cash in Stubborn.

    Like many units, in many books, the points values are where they need to be, but the unit doesn't mesh with the playstyle of the army. The units available in the book will determine the lists taken. For example, we take White Lions, and people say that they are most certainly under-priced for what they do. Often, in competitive settings, it's the units which are a touch too cheap, or the units which share more synergy with each other (and with magic items, spells, etc) which find themselves being taken. Units that don't fit into that list get cast to wayside, and are deemed "over priced". It's not that they aren't worth the points, it's simply that other units are always edging them out. Units which don't fit the theme but cover a gap in the army (for example, the Hellcannon providing Shooting to a Chaos Army) will often cost more or less than it should, because of the conflict. But when the developers look at a unit like the Lion Chariot and think that it does fit the theme, price it accordingly, and then slot it into an army with no use for it... that's what leads players to feel like their chariot should come at a discount.
    Imagine slotting the Lion Chariot into an army like Tomb Kings, Beastmen, or Dwarfs. They'd probably snap it up.

    "If it were 20pts cheaper, of course I'd take it" but then other players would be saying that it's underpriced. Then we'd see armies with their entire special taken as Lion Chariots (instead of White Lions) and we'd be complaining that something else was too pricey.

    --All of this is based on my experience with working on my Nippon Armybook. I tried to price things in a way that made sense, comparing them to similar units that were well liked, and then providing discounts for being Special versions of Core units, etc. When it was all balanced out, a lot of people said that everything was underpriced in the book, and the book had a very spiky power level.
    Pts Values for AoS here!

    Nippon Armybook: Isuu, Scribd, and free at Google Docs

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    I'm not too sure I agree with the contention that the CW chariot is comparable in points. We trade stubborn and 2 extra mount attacks for -1T, 1 worse armor save, no scythed wheels, 2 less crew attacks, 10 points more expensive and is Special vs Core. The crew gets 2 S6 attacks vs 4 S5 (I would rather have 4x S5 by far)

    If you were to put these two units side by side, without regard to army synergy, the CW chariot is still the better value. And vs other types of chariots the comparison gets even worse. I agree that the biggest drawback to lion chariots is that they don't synergize well with the HE army but no one would even consider them if they did because they are bloody expensive for what they bring to the table. Just the fact that they are a special choice makes them compete for space with some of the most effective HE units in the game. It would be nice to have a way to take them as core... such as core if Korhil is in the army, but even then looking at the opportunity cost for fielding this unit makes that hard.

    Then there is the other side of the coin where I think the CW chariot is still a tad underpriced by comparison. It should be 10 points MORE than a Lion chariot... not 10pts less. Just the fact that it is a core choice could justify that swing. T5 and a 3+ save is also far superior to anything the lion chariot brings. CW crew and mounts = 4x S5 and 2x S4 vs Lion 4x S5 and 2x S6 attacks... would you rather have +2S to 2 of your attacks or would you rather have +1T, +1AS and scythed wheels?

    Its not that the Lion feels over priced, its that if I was given the choice of using a chaos chariot in place of a lion chariot it would not even be a hard decision. (Especially when you add the flexability of adding marks!) The CW chariot is a much more effective unit. What good is stubborn when you don't have the armor save and toughness to make that ability useful? This goes back to my conclusion that the lion chariot is a bit over priced and the CW chariot is a bit under priced.
    Last edited by TimA; September 2nd, 2014 at 13:57.

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  6. #4
    Benevolent Dictator CaptainSarathai's Avatar
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    1480 (x8)

    Suppose both Chariots hit a block of typical Chaos Warriors (T4, S5, Sv4+)
    The Lion Chariot will deal out:
    3.5 Impact Hits = 1.94W
    2S6 Crew Attacks = .83W
    4S5 Lion Attacks = 1.11W
    Total Damage: 3.88W

    The Chaos Chariot would deal:
    4.5 Impact Hits = 2.5W
    4S5 Crew Attacks = 1.11W
    2S4 Horse Attacks = .33W
    Total Damage: 3.94W

    Wounds taken in return gets a little weird, because one thing that you are forgetting is that the Lion Chariot also causes Fear. So we have to modify any wounds inflicted by the chance that the opponent fails their Fear check. This is the wrong way to do it (should use binomials) but for ease of use I'm going to use averages.
    Also, I'm rolling one attack. That will tell us how many attacks in total are required to bring down each chariot. This is more useful than saying "oh, 4 Warriors can take it down" because you aren't always going to hit 4 Warriors. Sometimes there will be two ranks and you'll see supporting attacks, and you might even hit a horde. Warriors are 2A each, so the back ranks throw a wrench.

    Lion Chariot
    Fear Check vs. Ld8 Warriors = 27.78%
    [pass fear] 1A = .28W/Attack
    [fail fear] 1A = .19W/Attack
    so with the averages we get an average of .25W/Attack
    It's going to take about 16A to bring down that Chariot. It will survive a round of combat against anything but a Horde of Warriors, or a Khorne Warriors regiment. 4 Warriors with any other mark and a single rank of support only lay out 12A, and it would therefore take them 2 Rounds of combat to kill of the chariot.

    Chaos Chariot
    1A = .17W/Attack
    It's going to take 23.6 attacks to drop the Chaos Chariot. It is more likely to survive a round of combat against the same odds, however it is still unlikely that it will last more than two full rounds of combat.

    As for the Fear/Stubborn not being worth the additional points, to get anything similar to that from WoC you would need to run Mark of Slaanesh (immune to Fear/Terror/Panic), which covers half the points difference.

    So should they be roughly the same-ish in terms of price? Yes. They'll both last ~2 rounds in combat, and they'll both deal the same amount of damage within a tenth of a Wound on impact. The Lion Chariot is actually better in that second round as well. And I do see what you're saying - there should be a discount assessed to Special/Rare units, or a fine added to Core units.

    What I'm arguing though, is that the points are close enough, and that you have to assess the unit within the army. The Chaos army on whole has very cheap Close Combat units because that's all they do. Chaos players already know that they need to focus as many points on "boots on the ground" as humanly possible, because the only way for them to win games is to get a surviving unit into close combat. Unlike Elves, they do not have exceptional casting/dispelling abilities, nor can they shoot. If everything in the Warriors book were "on point" with similar units in other, more flexible armies, they would have a hard time winning any games. And hell, Chaos Warriors themselves are on point with anything in another book - it's disgusting that a White Lion with all of their rules is 1pt cheaper than a basic Chaos Warrior.

    You have to consider the rest of the book that's wrapped around that unit choice. If you compare Silver Helms and Chaos Knights, you could make the argument that Silver Helms do the job that most WoC players use their Knights for, and are slightly better for it. SHs do better in ranks, count as Core, and cost half as much. The entire WoC army has a hard time bringing ranks to the table. If they bring Chariot core, where are they breaking Steadfast?

    If Lion Chariots were Core, I'd probably take nothing but Lion Chariots, even at their current cost. I'd rather see Tirranoc Chariots as Core however, as I consider them to be an all around better unit. Heavy Chariots like the WoC/Lion chariot are just strange - they're too big and expensive to be used as anti-chaff, and they're not quite sturdy enough to throw into regiments unsupported. They're slower than the Heavy Cavalry that they're seeking to replace in our lists (there: would you rather have Lion Chariot core, or Silver Helm core?)

    And again, this is a vacuum. If you want an army that can play with a lot of Chariots, field Chaos Warriors. If you want an army that will hands-down smack the pants off of any non-chariot-loaded Chaos Warriors army, stick with High Elves. Ironic, isn't it?
    Pts Values for AoS here!

    Nippon Armybook: Isuu, Scribd, and free at Google Docs

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    Captain, what about the S3 T3 5+ infantry that we see running around? That +1 toughness immediately doubles the amount of time it takes to kill off the chariot (5s compared to 6s to wound) not even counting the extra armor save. Besides, the S6 of the riders is wasted on the kitty kart. Also, against anything worse than WS5 (the majority of the game) the Warriors do even better, as they have more attacks to benefit. So, when compared against the unit that White Lions are BEST AT KILLING yes, the WL Chariot does a pretty good job. When you look around at the rest of the armies it doesn't measure up quite so well.
    They totally need to put Bagpipers in for the high elves.
    X amount of points- any army with a bagpiper in them wins automatically based on sheer awesomeness.

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    Here you go Karl....

    Let's examine a scenario where we compare a Kitty Cart vs. a Khorne Chariot charging a 40 man Empire Swordsman Regiment in horde formation with FC. (no detachment)(Note: I chose Khorne since this is played commonly and its points are equivalent to the kitty cart.)

    For this example there will be a maximum of 4 models in base contact with the chariot. With horde formation + champion will allow the swordsmen a maximum possible 13 attacks vs. the chariot.

    Start with the Kitty Cart.

    Impact hits average 3.5 @S5 vs T3 = 2.92W, At AS5+ there is no save but they will get the 6++ Sword & Board (S&B ) so total impact wounds = 2.43

    The Crew swings next with 2 attacks hitting on a 3+ nets 1.33 hits on average. This nets 1.11 wounds and with S&B save = .93 wounds

    Lions attack next. Since their WS is the same as the swordsmen we have to take fear into account. At Ld7 the swordsmen are free to fight with no issue 58.34% of the time, and are at WS1 41.66% of the time.
    No fear - lions hit 2x @58.34% = 1.17 hits
    w/ fear - lions hit 2.66x @41.66% = 1.11 hits
    so average lion hits = 2.28 hits
    2.28 S5 vs T3 wounds = 1.9W and with S&B save = 1.58W

    So round 1 we have 2.43 impact + .93 crew + 1.58 kitty wounds caused = 4.95 total wounds (rounded to 5W)
    Now Empire's return attacks. 13 S3 attacks
    No fear = 6.5 hits @58.34% = 3.79 hits
    w/ fear = 4.33 hits @41.66% = 1.81 hits
    Total of 5.6 hits on average. S3 vs. T4 means a 5+ to wound = 1.86 W and with a 4+AS = .93W (1W rounded)

    Combat resolution
    - Kitty Cart = 5W, charge = 6
    - Empire = 1W, 3 ranks, standard = 5

    Round 2 will be similar but without impact hits. The Kitty cart will do 2.5 wounds and the Empire swordsmen will still do around 1 W back. The change is in combat resolution...
    - Kitty Cart = 2.5W
    - Empire = 1W, 2 Ranks, Standard = 4 so the kitty cart will have to rely of stubborn to survive from that point on! Which will pass roughly 3 out of 4 rolls (72.23% chance of passing.)


    On to the Chaos Chariot of Khorne!

    Impact hits = 4.5 @S5 vs T3 = 3.75W and S&B save = 3.125

    Chaos Warrior crew strikes next with 6 attacks @ S5 = 4 hits vs T3 = 3.33W, S&B save = 2.77W

    The Swordsmen strike simul with the steeds... so I will resolve steeds first...

    2 Attacks @ WS2 S4 = 1 hit, S4 vs T3 = .66W , AS = .55W, S&B save = .52W

    Swordsman attack 13x = 6.5 hits vs T5 = 1.08W, 3+ Armor Save = .36W

    Combat Resolution
    - Khorne Chariot = 6.45W, Charge = 7.42 (rounded to 7)
    - Swordsmen = .36W, 3 ranks, standard = 4.36 (rounded to 4)

    Round 2 does not get much better for the empire... as they have lost a rank and can only rely on luck to score an occasional wound. Their average combat resolution will be 3 unless they can score a lucky wound.

    The chaos warrior chariot will lose 3W of impact hits and will have an average combat resolution of 3

    Conclusion:

    On the initial turn the chaos chariot will average 1.5 wound more and take 1 wound less in return
    In the subsequent round the chaos chariot will average 1 more wound than the kitty cart and still take 1 less wound in return. As a result the chaos chariot should win the second round of combat while the kitty cart will have to rely on a stubborn roll to keep in the fight.

    That is on average a 2 point combat resolution advantage the Chaos Chariot has over the Kitty Cart... in any round!.

    Oh...and the Chaos Chariot can be fielded in droves since they are core!
    Last edited by TimA; September 8th, 2014 at 15:59.

  9. #7
    Benevolent Dictator CaptainSarathai's Avatar
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    Right - but you're arguing over a 10pt difference (not even a 10pt difference anymore, with MoK) on two units from separate books, in a vacuum. You're completely missing the disadvantages of Frenzy on the MoK Chariot, the advantage of causing Fear and having Stubborn for the Lion Chariot, and the synergy of both units with their army.

    Karl said that it was useless to compare the two chariots against a dead-hard unit like WoC because they would both struggle, but look at this - with a dead-even points (by way of the MoK upgrade) against an ideal target, you're only getting a +/- 2CR difference between the two. That's really not that much. Yes, we've shot down Swordmasters over much, much less when compared to White Lions, but those are two units filling roughly the same role, in the same book. You can't discount the fact that Warriors of Chaos do not have any viable ranked infantry models for less than 20pts. That's a huge deal, because sure - you can send in Chariots all day, but they're going to have to deal with Steadfast a lot more often than High Elves.

    One thing that I'm surprised nobody has mentioned is the movement difference. And it's a good example of the synergy issue. High Elves hate the Lion Chariot because it is the slowest unit in our entire book. Warriors players don't mind as much, because their chariots are moving at the same rate as their slowest marching infantry. So in the role of infantry support, WoC chariots aren't that bad. The trouble is the infantry that they're supporting. That movement difference is why I would always grab a Chaos Chariot over a Lion Chariot. It has nothing to do with points values.

    So are Chaos Chariots better? Yes. Undoubtedly so. They hit harder, they're Core, and they're faster. If they were ported 1:1 over to High Elves, even in Special against the Lion Chariot, or even in rare, I would take them over the WLC any day of the week (if I were taking heavy Chariots).

    Are Chaos Chariots underpriced? No. They're spot on for where they need to be. The reason people hate them so much is because they are effective chariots. They do the job that they're brought to the table for - hit hard and bust up a regiment. They don't have any flashy special rules to pay for, they don't have any wasted shooting attacks, etc. It's true of the entire army, and it's why Warriors will always come out on top in these kinds of "vacuum" scenarios.

    Are White Lion Chariots overpriced? No. They're spot on for what they bring to the table. The problem is that they have all the extra bells and whistles that make them situationally good. Hey, you have extra abilities to do this, that, and other thing, but you pay for it even when you aren't using it.

    Is the Lion Chariot bad? Yes. Absolutely. Because it does a terrible job fitting into the army. If it were slotted in the WoC army, it would probably be considered better, actually. Not necessarily better than the standard WoC chariot (because it's not Core) but you would see them more often in WoC armies which also include GoreBeast chariots and infantry. Much in the same capacity of Beasts of Nurgle in a Daemons army.
    Pts Values for AoS here!

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  11. #8
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    Captain... sorry for getting you riled up! Not my intention... (btw...The example used Khorne to make the points equivalent for comparison)

    This thread gets to the heart of my issue with GW. They put out a model (which I think is very attractive and thematically interesting) and do not spend enough time play testing or developing effective rules which would make the model a viable option in the army list. Yes it is similar to a chaos chariot in many ways (I would argue though that 2 combat resolution points is a large difference.) but as you succinctly pointed out... the model actually has negative synergies with the high elf army. Had they properly vetted this model and its rules they could have changed course in how they designed this model's game mechanics.

    What I cannot understand about the chariot mechanics is why they CANT march? In open terrain (historically) they were MUCH faster than infantry and in many armies they were used in the same role as heavy cav (Egyptians and Hittites for instance). As you pointed out, they are crippled by their movement restrictions and become left in the dust by armies with a mv of 5 or better.

    If they really wanted to make chariots more in line with historic uses they should:
    1. Give a mv penalty for the carriage (-1) and then let them march
    2. keep the rough terrain restrictions (or only allow them to operate in open terrain...which is more realistic)(i.e. must stay 1" away from trees, rough/impassable terrain, buildings and water)
    3. make default AS 4+ and T4
    4. Heavy chariots (AS3+ and/or T5) should have an additional -1 to Mv.
    You are right... unfortunately, what is a very attractive and interesting figure, has no place in the High Elf army
    Last edited by TimA; September 10th, 2014 at 17:13.

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