New Book. - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

Welcome to Librarium Online!

Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!

Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!


Register Now!

User Tag List

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 31

Thread: New Book.

  1. #1
    Senior Member andronicus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Age
    37
    Posts
    314
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputation
    32 (x1)

    New Book.

    Hi there.

    I've been thinking about starting up lizards and was wondering what you guys thought of the new book. I've had a quick look through it but not enough to really know much more than I already do.
    Any seasoned veterans got any tips on where to start?
    Which units are now worth/not worth fielding?
    What size units of Saurus and skinks is average for say 2000pts?

    Cheers.


  2. Remove Advertisements
    Librarium-Online.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    777
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputation
    33 (x2)

    Look at any of the old lists you see on this forum. Nothing has changed at all apart from now dont bother with the engine of the gods upgrade (although still take the stegadon with D3 wounds on impact)

    Basically you are looking at something like

    Lords
    BSB slaan (upgrade as to how you see fit but probably just a dispel scroll is all that is needed)

    Hero's
    Skink priest with the cube of darkness

    Core
    1 block of saurs (add another block at higher points games, 2400+ )
    fill rest of min core with 2 or 3 skink skirmisher units (take minimum size units for these)

    Special
    a couple units of chamelion skinks
    Temple Guard

    Rare
    2units of 1 Salamanders
    Ancient Stegadon


    If increasing your points games add some terradons and you are set.

    However i should warn you, this release was terrible, the rules are probably the worst since tomb kings and you only have 1 viable build.
    It truly is appalling of how much they screwed this book up, i even wonder if they play tested this at all. Everything new the put out is just beyond useless.

    Take for example the bastilladon. Now what purpose does it serve.
    It has a good armour save (2+) and mediocre toughness (5+), however with only 4 wounds and S4 (i am actually wondering if this was a typo) and 3 attacks its terrible in combat. The snake variant is a total joke. I dont even know why they bothered with this.
    Now the bound spell version is pretty good. So great yea, it has a purpose. However its using up power dice which your (expensive) slaan now desperately needs.
    Now when you pay as much as you do for a slaan you want to make the most out of your power dice and not using them up and a medicore random bound spell.
    Now you could not take the slaan, but then your opponent will just dispell your bound spells with ease.
    Really this makes no sence, same goes with the engine.

    The ripperdactyls are another stupid rules fail.

    The trogloadon is probably the "best" new thing out there but even that is pretty usless, and really if i was taking a monster i would rather just have a stegadon

  4. #3
    Benevolent Dictator CaptainSarathai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    inside your head
    Posts
    9,222
    Mentioned
    77 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    1480 (x8)

    Kiwi does a pretty good (albeit a bit vulgar at times) review of what's going on. The guys rate it at "lower mid-tier" rather, but only one of them is actually a regular LM player, and he only started last year.

    In the end of it, Lizardmen are still Lizardmen, in most senses. Having thumbed through the book, I'll agree that they're not as sickeningly good as they used to be. As I predicted, there was only one place for the Lizards to go, and that's down. The same was true of the Warriors release, as both armies were at the top of the game in their prior iterations.
    The stuff that you're used to - Slann, TG, Saurus, Skinks, etc are all roughly equal to what they used to be. There's a touch of reshuffling between them, for instance Skink Chieftains and Scar Vets have started to stand out to people as "worth it". Other stuff has gone up or down, but on the whole the book is still what it always was.

    The Slann did take one to the teeth, but he's still a very solid wizard - he's just not "Teclis Bashing Powerful" like I used to point out to anyone who was whining about Elf magic in their previous book. That's a good thing, by the way. He's toned down, but trust me - he's still a ripper of a character. The only true downside is that he's hit 50% of your max Lord Choice in a 2400pt game, and has no free upgrades beyond Lvl4. You're rarely going to see the "dual slann" armies anymore.

    The new units are a let down, but to be frank - so are most of the new units in every book so far. Some obviously stand out - Demis are brutes, etc etc. On the whole, the Lizards are dealing with some piss-poor new toys, more akin to the Warriors release (the good news of course is that you don't need to buy anything shiny new).

    On whole, I don't think that it's as apocalyptic as jgascoine paints it. A lot of the guys on Lustria and even in the comments on Kiwi seem to agree that the book has become "Mid-tier" but that they probably will not remain "lower middle" once players get used to the new book. Also keep in mind that lots of veteran LM players are a touch angry that most of their army did seem to get a treatment of nerf. They've gone from being one of the walk-on best armies of 8th, down to having to work themselves out and think through their games again. No complaints.

    Unless you're really well and truly aiming for a brutal tournament list for high-end powergaming, then I say that LM are still going to prove an excellent army to branch in to. I expect that we're still going to see LM players doing well in tournaments. At this point, the "tier system" is pretty strange anyways, as just about everything is falling into the "middle" and the only lower tiered armies are the obviously poor ones, like the outdated WE, Brets, and the poorly redone Beasts and TKs. Within that "middle", everyone is quite balanced, it's down to arguments and local metas to work it out from there. The older books are also the most common outliers, and once they are updated I expect the game to be a lot more balanced towards that middle. So even if you do feel the Lizards are low-middle, they're going to end up in a good place once we knock out the last few updates and hop editions.

    cheers
    Pts Values for AoS here!

    Nippon Armybook: Isuu, Scribd, and free at Google Docs

  5. Remove Advertisements
    Librarium-Online.com
    Advertisements
     

  6. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    777
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputation
    33 (x2)

    I agree with most of what captain said. And yes the lizardmen release was very much like the warriors release where units got changed around a little and all the new models were useless (although the new lizardmen models are both better looking and more usefull than the pile of garbage GW released for WoC).

    However i just think that you might get bored of the book. Once you have built your army nothing will really change.
    You might add a bastilladon, or trogladon but in general it will still focus on just temple guard and saurus bashing things on the head, with skirmishers redirecting units and monsters for support. You can no longer realistically do the dino army or skink army


    However i think i will just give you a rough guide on what not to buy as they are so bad they are not fun to play
    1) Ripperdactyls
    2) Razordons - Salamanders are just so much better
    3) Skinks with kroxigores - this unit has become nerfed to hell. Complete fail
    4) Carnosaur
    5) Cold one Knights
    6) Stegadon - always upgrade to ancient
    7) EotG - never upgrade the ancient steg to have the engine of the gods


    The bastilladon and trogladon are better but only just slightly and only take them if you like the models and just want to have fun

  7. #5
    Senior Member sunkerncity's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    South... west
    Age
    23
    Posts
    265
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputation
    94 (x1)

    Firstly, Sarathi, spot on.

    I felt like the Lizards got a bit of a wake-up-slap in the sense that Vetock has managed to balance the army really well now. Now, we no longer have a Slann which could alone take vast chunks out of an army, but one who can support your blocks with attacks. This is why he got nerfed so hard, but he needed it. The only problems I have are:

    -No cupped hands, which put me off using High magic as I used to just use life with throne of vines.
    -Ripperdactyls are just really, really stupid. Being MonCav with something like a potential 8 S4 killing blow armour piercing re-rolling attacks (on one unit, granted), Vetock basically is saying: pick a unit, charge it, kill it. If it's not a monster, in reality it is dead. (short of mournfang/bloodcrushers)
    -New Jungle Swarms got booted into a decent postition, but a bit too much so, IMO. Put a Bastilodon with the Sotek thing alongside, get some CoC or Ripperdactyls, and watch as you all get poison on the enemy unit, which will suffer a lot as a result.

    That said, on lots of thorough inspection, my local Lizardmen players and I agreed that instead of being chunks of OPness like last edition, the army feels more cohesive, everything working together more, allowing you to have more interesting combos. Yes, the new Disciplines are terrible. Yes, units like Razordons got nerfed and Krox are still pretty much awful. But on the whole, this book is good.

    On the new kits, they aren't bad at all, I think. The problem being, that Dactyls and Carnosaur aside, the units can only perform support roles. Bastilodon is great for a unit to tack on to its flank, as it means that basically no flank charges, plus some useful rules like +1I. Troglodon is there to support your Stegadon (normal) in monster killing, and your Slann in magic (arcane vassal, channelling). Terradons support everything by taking out Wizards and war machines.

    @ jgascoine, really I think you have overdone it a bit. In fact, as many units that have gone down in points have gone up, which is balanced. On the Bastilodon, and the Troglodon, see above. I'm sorry if having no out-and-out killer new units (apart from dactyls) disappointed you, but the way it is is that now we no longer have an army which would blast others to pieces in a few turns, but one that gives an interesting game, that we won't automatically lose by any means. Surely you'd rather have a more enjoyable to play army, with lots of options (this is not a monobuild army), than one where you steamroller your opponent with OP units?

    And either way, it could have been much worse.

    It could have been by Cruddace.
    Last edited by sunkerncity; August 5th, 2013 at 12:10.

  8. #6
    Senior Member sirkently's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    4,361
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    494 (x8)

    We got hit hard, which was to be expected. Don't have a problem with that. My issue is with army versatility, meaning what different builds you can bring to the table. Looking at the new book, what we lack isn't power, it is interesting army lists.

    Here is the start:

    Block of saurus warriors with spears
    Skinks to fill minimum core requirements
    Block of temple guard
    Slann

    There is the start of every competitive lizardman army. No variation possible other than Slann builds, and that will be about half your army. Its like playing wood elves where you only have one build that can be competitive.

    On the new units, I don't mind the beastieboy, or the rippers. The troglodon is just awful. I like having everything available in an army to play different builds. I have played even with razordons just for kicks. The trog is the one model I will probably not buy. I just see absolutely no purpose for it even in a monster mash list.

    I will say that I like the engine of the gods still. I built a 3000 point monster list with 2 of them, 2 carnos and 2 beasties. Not overly competitive but fun to play.

    Feeling boxed in,
    SirKently
    I am right 94% of the time, why worry about the other 3%.

  9. #7
    Organised Chaos saltrock36's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    England
    Age
    34
    Posts
    1,233
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    107 (x4)

    Same.

    Theres a lot of new and interesting changes/units, but not once did I read a unit entry and go "...Wow, I need one of those". I tried to get an impression of what to expect from reading the latest WD battle report vs TKs (yes we know they are all fixed, but...), and I couldn't understand why the slann wasn't blasting units apart, or the new troglodon hadn't chewed the head off the Bone Giant (and in fact died to it), but when you get hold of the new army book its apparent why it panned out like that.

    I agree with Sir Kently with the Troglodon. GW missed a real trick in making a useful monster, but I just look at what you pay for what you get, and cant imagen how it happened. Had it been changed, so that Skink Chiefs could ride it, so that its raw ability had a chance of working more than once a game, and maybe just one more attack on its profile, and I would have been all over it. but as it stands, its just a good looking model. (a let down as I was hoping to do a skink army...)

    Well, at least Kroxigor went back to S5-7 with GW.

    On the other hand Gor Rok looks solid.

  10. #8
    Senior Member sirkently's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    4,361
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    494 (x8)

    Yes, Gor-Rok is solid, and Kroak is really good this edition. Will see him in games that allow special characters.

    Kroxigor did go back to strength 5, but with the changes to the skink/krox unit, they just are not viable anymore.

    Still sad,
    SirKently
    Last edited by sirkently; August 5th, 2013 at 17:26.
    I am right 94% of the time, why worry about the other 3%.

  11. #9
    Senior Member sunkerncity's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    South... west
    Age
    23
    Posts
    265
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputation
    94 (x1)

    I think that sirkently you are right when you say it is the foundation, but what other units you take can greatly affect how you play. The choice of monsters has gone from 2 to 5. There is new, awesome cavalry. Kroxigors still suck, but they pretty much have never been competitive. Everybody took Slann anyway- why would you not, and how was Vetock supposed to stop that without making the Slann underpowered or the Oldblood overpowered?

    Yes the Troglodon is very limited in its uses. I wish it was more fighty, say another attack and S5 is really not asking too much. Then again, a 2+ is pretty decent, although our CoC already have that! I would have made the save rerollable or something.

    On the monobuild, what changes could be made to stop us only taking Saurus, Slann, etc? I can't think of many. Plus, most people took that monobuild before anyway. Not many units have been nerfed. Saurus have gotten better (which does sadly mean that people are pushed more towards mostly Saurus), the Slann badly needed a nerf, the CoC are cheaper.

    Oh and the EotG? All effects at once? I am very pleased, plus I don't have to put it in my Lords and Heroes anymore, which means that we can potentially take more characters, of which we have more models.

  12. #10
    Organised Chaos saltrock36's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    England
    Age
    34
    Posts
    1,233
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    107 (x4)

    It may feel bit unfluffy, (except maybe a southlands list) but I had been hoping that all skink armies would have been made viable in the same way all goblin armies are okay, and to some degree, they are, but why would you when you can get a saurus for the cost of 2 skinks.

    Also, it would have been nice if skinks could have also had high magic, or at least a few more lores to choose from. You would have thought that serving the greatest casters around would have given the option for a few more lores. Think il stick with heavens for now.
    Last edited by saltrock36; August 5th, 2013 at 18:22.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts